Ezra McCarthy
Welcome back to the Lawn Care Success Blueprint. today, back with another episode. today I’m joined by Joshua Gillow, the founder of MasterPLAN Outdoor Living and Yes Express Sales Academy. and he’s had a lot of experience in our industry—transforming outdoor living spaces and now helping countless businesses grow their sales. so Joshua, sure glad to have you here today.
Joshua Gillow
I’m happy to be here, Ezra. open to help.
Ezra McCarthy
For those listening who may perhaps have not heard of you before, would you tell them kind of what is your experience—and even more specifically in the hardscaping and outdoor living space?
Joshua Gillow
Yeah, thank you. so thank you for having me on here. and my startup in this industry was not exactly a plan, right? I grew up in a garden center. my mother and father started the garden center when I was about five years old. and I grew up in that model—working seven days a week, not getting paid, and being like, hey, this is life. this is what it is, right? you just work like crazy, and you were never bored. let’s put it that way. so I did that for many years as a child, growing up to about age 18.
around 18, we started having customers—my brother, he’s about 18 months younger than me—and he was there. and some customers would come in the garden center and they saw two young men. they’re like, will you guys install stuff? and we’re like, sure. I’ll never forget it—the first time a client came to us and said, you know, I’ll actually pay you a thousand dollars a day to come out and do stuff around my house. and I was like, a thousand dollars a day?
I mean, you gotta understand, dude—I didn’t see any of the money. it went to the garden center, we paid our bills, and we had enough to survive. it was not a thriving situation in any way, shape, or form financially.
when they said that, I was doing the math on my fingers thinking, there’s seven days in a week—I’m like, we’re gonna be rich. this is crazy. we never had any money. this could be amazing. so we started to build our design-build company. at the time, didn’t even know what it was called. basically just—whatever you needed done, we’d get out and do it.
we lived near the Delaware River, so when it flooded between New Jersey and Pennsylvania, we’d go down and clean up the banks with chainsaws and an old pickup truck—the proverbial startup.
we didn’t know what we were doing. this was not a business I was like, I can’t wait to get out of school and start. this was something that just kind of fell in our laps. and I was like, okay, I don’t have a better plan, let’s go with this.
did that for many years—15 years, actually—with the family company. we developed that up into a company doing $800,000 to $900,000 a year. couldn’t break the million-dollar mark. struggled like crazy. this was back in the early 2000s, so not quite like today. we had a good time, built a lot of great outdoor spaces, eventually got a lot more design work involved.
at a certain point, decided to shift from design-build to design-manage and did that back in 2012. with that being the case—shifting over to design-manage—it really gave me an opportunity to do whatever I wanted to do in it. I wasn’t limited to what my crews could put in the ground or what education or skill sets they had. I had the opportunity—if a client came up with an idea or we came up with an idea—we’d find a guy that could do it. so that really unlocked the potential of what was possible.
been blessed to do that now for the last 12 years. I’ve got an incredible team that runs that company. and yeah, just amazing to be out there serving such fun projects.
Ezra McCarthy
Is that more of like—you’re managing the job site and then you’re hiring the contractor—almost like a general contractor except for landscaping? is that kind of what you’re in?
Joshua Gillow
It is. I was watching—when I was in the family company and we had all the crews in-house and had all the equipment and all the headaches that come with all of that—this was the problem: we would work the entire year, and by the end of the summer into the fall, we finally had some money—maybe $20,000, $30,000, $50,000—sitting in the bank. and I’m like, my goodness, this is amazing. we have all this money. because remember, I didn’t come from any money, so it’s like—we have all this money sitting around.
and then we had three months in Pennsylvania—nothing happened. snow plowing? you couldn’t guarantee it, and it just destroyed our trucks. it was like, nope, not doing that.
so for three months, that business just ate from that stock of cash. and eventually after we paid the tax man in April, I had no money—back to zero again. and we would run that whole gamut all over again. and it felt like every year I was starting a new business. and it was like, man, every single year—back to zero. how can we possibly make this better? how can we create a model where we actually have work in the winter and cash flow?
and this is more like one of those corporate kind of businesses and not one of these mom-and-pops—constantly broke, got lots of money, then you’re broke, then lots of money again.
I was watching pool companies. I was watching home builders. and I’m like, these guys don’t have any crews. everything is subcontracted to them. I wonder if we could do this with outdoor living. and keep in mind—nobody was doing that in my entire area. like, nobody was doing this. and I was like, it has to be possible.
so with the grace of God, I found some good people to start working with and designing. and then I started to subcontract that work out to them and things started to grow. and I was like, this is great. I’ll never forget the first project I did—I made $3,000 in a day and I didn’t have to pick up a shovel.
and I was like, whoa, wait a minute, this is kind of fun. now I did obviously all the backend work and permits and all of those things, but I’m like—I’m not out in the trenches anymore. if it rains, doesn’t matter as much. I thought—how much could we scale something like this? how much could we grow something?
and then not just not work physically—but how can we give these opportunities? we’ll do all the stuff we like to do, which is the design and permits. we love to do the communication with the clients, managing monies, managing the crews.
but what we don’t love to do is actually going out there and digging in the ground. so how can we build a model where we don’t have to do that? that was the entire primer for this. eventually it started taking off and I started hiring for the team and now they run it all. so the cool part is that I did it because I wanted to find a better mousetrap and I didn’t see it in the market.
even back then, people weren’t charging for design work. that wasn’t a thing. we were the first to do that. we were the first to do this kind of a business model in our area. and everybody said, you can’t do that, that’s not going to work. I said,
watch me. watch me. so we were very blessed with that opportunity. and now to this day, we’re still out there serving that model.
Ezra McCarthy
So that’s very interesting. I’m curious—from the customer’s end, do you find that they give pushback? because obviously you have to communicate with the client, they have to understand the process, at least to some extent. are they nervous? how do you keep quality high? because obviously, you have to be charging higher than other people to sustain this business model.
Joshua Gillow
Yeah, so it’s different for sure. it comes in with a very different mindset. you have to shift the way you look at business and exactly what business is—and what your emotional connection to money is. that’s a huge primer with any business owner.
in this case, we have to be smart with how we’re designing because we like to call ourselves designers, right? so if we’re designers, our goal is to make sure we’re leading with that—not just to be… a lot of contractors are really good at building things, but they don’t really love the design. and there’s nothing wrong with that. there’s no judgment here.
but if that’s the case and you don’t love to design, but you love to build things, then you’ve got to find somebody who does love to design. get those ideas on the table and make sure that Mrs. Jones loves the idea—that it meets all of her needs and that it’s going to solve her problem in a big way.
so if you don’t like to design, you’re leaving gigantic opportunity in the market. you’re missing it. we’re like, all right, we’re designers who build—not builders trying to design. that was a differentiating slogan. like, we come into this design-first, heavy—we want to make sure we get all these things ironed out well. and in that
is where we add our massive value into the market. and clients—certain ones—want that. your designers, they’re busy. anybody can go to a Pier One and buy a bunch of stuff and stuff it in their house, but they want a designer’s hand and eye involved. they want to make sure they’re doing it really well. certain people value that, and others don’t—and it’s okay.
the biggest thing here is to make sure that when you’re talking to your customers, you’re attracting them to your business through your marketing channels—and that they’re the right ones. the ones that are, in our case, looking for a designer to hold their hand and walk them through the entire process—not somebody who’s just looking to get some free ideas and go DIY the entire thing. they’re very different models, right?
so we have to make sure we’re talking to the right people. because you can say the right message to the wrong people all day long and not get a good result. you have to be really careful.
Ezra McCarthy
That’s so true. and one thing though that’s interesting about this business model—I would presume, you correct me if I’m wrong—but you would need a little bit more volume because obviously you’re only taking a portion of the pie rather than the whole thing going into the business. so how do you deal with that? it would seem you’d need to increase your sales and your quality lead flow volume because of this.
Joshua Gillow
You’d think so, but it’s been the opposite for us, to be quite honest with you.
Ezra McCarthy
Okay—explain why.
Joshua Joshua Gillow
Our average year, we’ll do 15 to 20 projects. that’s all we need to do. our average project is $250,000. so we do projects from like $50,000 up to a million dollars. I mean, that’s a whole range of projects.
Now, what you’ll find is the design-manage model is more effective once you get into the six figures. if you’re doing $10,000 backyards, nobody wants to pay a middleman for that. let’s be honest—why would they? they can go right to the source. there’s no value. you’re not adding any value to the market. you’re simply trying to catch some cash on the side—and people are smarter than that.
But when it comes to multifaceted projects—maybe it’s a pool, deck, patio—or maybe it’s a patio, seating wall, fire pit—when you start getting multiple features put together, the next thing you notice is people start getting a little bit more uncertain. and all our jobs, as professionals, is to provide certainty in an uncertain world.
the client doesn’t see—or in our case, the word is visualize—they can’t visualize the bigger result. so if that’s the case, we need to help them with that. and when we help with that, we take uncertainty out of the relationship. we add certainty in. they’re paying for certainty. they want to know that if they go with your suggestions, your thoughts, your design, and have you manage the build, that it’s going to turn out as good as they expect—or better.
So we’re taking uncertainty out—which is the typical contractor experience: “yeah, no problem, you’re going to love it, just wait till I’m done.” tons of uncertainty. maybe it works, anxiety through the roof. they’re not sure what’s going to happen.
versus—you already know you’re going to see it in a three-dimensional full-color model. you already know you’re going to love it. if you love that model, you’re going to love the final result.
And then—here’s the key to it all—making sure you’re tying in an incredible customer journey and experience through the entire process. that’s key.
Because if you’re just thinking you’re going to run high volume and be out there doing the least amount for each client, you’re eventually going to have to find a lot of new people—because the last guy didn’t really enjoy working with you.
So if you focus on fewer interactions with people—but deeper relationships with them—spending the time with them, getting to know what they need, what they absolutely must have in that space, and getting to know their problem deeply—it makes it a lot simpler to build enough value to ask for whatever margin you want (within reason).
Ezra McCarthy
This is so interesting. it reminds me of the book by Joey Coleman called Never Lose a Customer Again—and your customer journey, touching points with them at each stage. so I’m guessing the customer journey from a $10,000 landscape project to your average—from $50,000 to $250,000—is very different.
Can you walk us through the sales process and how it’s different? maybe someone realizes their sales process is broken—they’re sending out leads and getting ghosted, or customers don’t see the value. maybe they’re not trying to get a $150,000 landscape project, but they’re looking to upgrade their sales process—what would you say to them?
Joshua Gillow
Well, first of all, there are some core fundamentals in sales that work—whether you’re selling $1 widgets or $1 million backyards.
You’ve got to think about it as a sales professional. You have to ask: what is your objective?
The objective could be—here’s a hypothetical—it could be that you’re like, look, can they fog a mirror? do they have a checkbook? they’re my customer. and you’re going to fight very, very low close rates. and you’re going to be exhausted, because you’re going to be running high volume with very little result.
If that’s your mindset—if that’s all you ever knew about sales is “I just need volume”—some of them are going to say yes. but that’s why the industry average close rate is 3 to 4 out of 10. and even 4 is a little high—it’s more like 2 to 3.
Some guys are doing a little bit better. and I’m not here to make fun of that. that used to be me. I used to be the guy that would be lucky to get 3 out of 10. and I’m like, man, there’s gotta be something. I know other guys are doing better than this. there’s gotta be something I’m not doing quite right.
If you’re focusing on transactions—only transactions—you’re going to struggle. it’s going to be very difficult to run your business because you’re just looking for the next paycheck, the next check coming in.
Ezra McCarthy
Can you describe—articulate—what do you mean when you say if you’re focusing on transactions? because someone listening in, that probably went right over their head.
Joshua Gillow
Yeah.
So, transactions are thinking of each client as a walking checkbook. like I mentioned before—thinking like, how many do I need? all right, well, if I close one or two, maybe three out of ten, that means I need to have a volume of X amount in order to hit my nut for the year, right?
So if that’s the case, then you walk along and you’re looking for anything you need to say, do, or have happen in order to get them to say yes—whether it’s true, or maybe bending the truth a little bit, or maybe telling them, “yeah, we can be there in two weeks,” when you know you can’t be—but you know that’ll get them to sign a check.
It starts becoming about the money—the revenue side of things.
When you start thinking on the transformational side—when you start thinking about relationships—it’s a completely different school of thought. and contractors are notorious for focusing on transactions and revenue, because that’s the lifeblood of the business. that’s what we’re taught: the more money we have, the more choices we can make, the better choices we can make.
The problem is that if our hearts are aligned with this idea that “we need volume because I need money,” and each client is just a holder of that money…
how do you think you show up to that meeting? how do you show up to that relationship when it’s all about the money?
Ezra McCarthy
You’re gonna act like a proverbial vampire just trying to get what you can out of it.
Joshua Gillow
Exactly. And do you think your customers can sense and feel that? 100 miles away, you’re exactly right. They’ll smell you coming in the driveway like, ⁓ I got it. I know exactly what kind of guy this is gonna be or girl, this is gonna be. I say that because that’s an internal shift. Inside, if you come into it this way thinking I’ve got all these bills, I need money to pay these bills, these people have money, what do I gotta say to get a yes from them so I can get a check and pay my bills? Customers smell that a mile away. And the ones that are low balling out there, the customers that are like, yeah, yeah, we’re gonna go for.
Ezra McCarthy
You’re gonna smell it a mile away.
Joshua Gillow
Whoever’s the cheapest guy and you happen to be that guy, then you get the job and hate working with that customer. All of that happens because you’re focused on money and money is the lowest form of currency. Money is the lowest form of currency. Even though we need it, it’s the lifeblood of our business. If our focus is only on money, we’re going to be missing a massive opportunity to grow your business. Massive. Here’s what I mean by that. You transfer that idea of focusing only on revenue and transactions and you shift it to service.
service through transformation of a backyard or space around their house thinking, how can I come up with the best ideas that align with what the clients need in order to best serve them in their transformation? So you’re not the hero anymore. You’re the guide. You’re guiding your client toward the truth and what’s going to make them the happiest at the end. The dollars follow afterward. That’s something I learned in the garden center when I was young. My father always said that he said, son, always do your best and give clients as much as you possibly can. The money will follow after always add value. First money will always follow that.
And it didn’t seem right when I was younger. I’m like, I really don’t understand this. And I try to get into the volume game and all that and transactions. I’ve done all these things wrong. And that’s why I can sit here and say this. I’ve made all these mistakes. And then when I shifted back a little later in life to thinking like, man, if I just focus on transformations, how do I help clients transform? How do I make them that the heroes and me just the guide? How do we, how do we go to building relationships, which is the highest form of currency? So we go from the lowest money to relationships. And if we take our time in order to build a relationship. So as right.
How would you, you were going and you wanted to go out and I don’t know, meet a couple of buddies and like make some buddies, I don’t know, like some guys struggle with relationships that are outside of work, right? Say you went and played pickleball or volleyball or whatever ball you’re into. How would you do it? Would you be sitting there saying nothing in the corner, looking out of the window, or would you be engaging and like spending time with them, maybe going out for a beer after we’re like, what are you doing to build a relationship? I’m asking that question. So what would you do in order to build a relationship?
Ezra McCarthy
Communicating with them—yeah, got to communicate, do things with them. and I would add in here—I really like that—and I would say the medium between transactions and relationship is trust. that’s what bridges the gap.
Joshua Gillow
It is. you’re exactly right with that—that’s the bridge. but then the next question is, how do we build trust?
It’s not going to be, “Hey guys, I’m here. how much you got? what do you want? I’ll get you a quote.” that’s not building anything. all that’s doing is saying you’re just like the last three guys that showed up—still dirty from the day, stinking of cigarettes, showing up at the door, kicking the mud off their boots before they walk in the house. and the client thinks, “well, I guess this is all we get to choose from.”
So you’re forcing your client to look at three or four bids equally—because they all showed up the same. but imagine being that weird one—the one that actually stops home, gets dressed nicely. polo shirt—maybe it’s got a logo on it, maybe it doesn’t. you show up on time. you don’t reek of cigarettes. you’re not muddy. you knock on the front door. you understand how to build rapport.
You meet with them, build rapport. you go in, sit down, and start asking great questions—not telling them all about how amazing you are and all the amazing jobs you’ve done and how great you are—blah blah blah. they don’t care.
At the end of the day, what they want is to feel special. they want to be seen. they want to be heard. so give them that space. and then walk them through what could be done in their backyard.
Provide that proposal. call them up and say, “Guys, look—I just sent over the proposal. please let me know if you have any questions. I’m here to answer anything. this should hit all the things you talked about—you mentioned A, B, C, E, F, and G—and all of them are listed in there. if there’s anything about it you don’t understand, let me know.”
Because you actually care. you’re showing up, you care. you take your most precious asset—your time—and you’re giving it to the clients. and they can feel that. when they feel that from you, and they feel that you’re prioritizing their experience, their project over everybody else’s—where they feel like they are the only project you’re working on—even if you’ve got 60 of them behind you—they’re the only one. they feel that.
And do you think they’re willing to spend more or less for that kind of relationship and that kind of business connection? what do you think?
That’s the difference. that’s the difference. so—slowing it down, talking to fewer people, and going deeper. that’s the core of what we teach here at Yes Express.
Ezra McCarthy
100%—see it.
Joshua Gillow
It’s not a volume game so much. it’s about making sure you’ve got the right client coming in the door, spending the right amount of time with them, and knowing what questions to ask. knowing how to take them on a journey that’s going to give them a great experience and an incredible result.
It’s all about outcomes. they’re coming to you for results. but if you’re just looking at them as a paycheck—or as a checkbook that happens to breathe—it’s a problem. because you’re never going to get to the projects that you dream about doing.
Because everybody else is going at it the same way. all it takes is to shift things just slightly—and everything changes.
Ezra McCarthy
And I’ll add in there one note—I think it was a book I was reading—it was talking about the best way to talk to people. and they said they talked to someone for 30 or 40 minutes, and that person walked away saying, “oh, that was a great conversation.” and they laughed later—because literally the other person did all the talking.
And when we’re talking to customers, it’s easy to go in—like you said—telling them about all these projects we’ve worked on. but some of the best sales—and maybe you could add here—is just taking the time to listen, respond to that, affirm, and really pay attention to their needs.
I’m pretty sure you’ve read the book StoryBrand—because I really like what you’re talking about, making the customer the hero. because too often, even in our websites—if we’re not careful with our marketing material—we come in and say, “we can do all this for you.” basically, we’re blessing you with the opportunity to work with us.
But instead, if we could say, “hey, we’re helping you,” as you mentioned—and Donald Miller in StoryBrand talks about—making the customer the hero, and saying, “hey, we’re going to help you have your experience.”
I think that’s really important. and like you’re saying—
Joshua Gillow
Yeah. no, 100%. and that shifts the game. because customers—they come in with a certain standard of expectation when it comes to what it’s going to be like to work with a quote-unquote contractor. and whether we like it or not, they put us all in the same box. whether you’ve got the fanciest trucks, the best sales procedures, the best customer experience—or you’re the guy in the beat-up truck that’s smoking like crazy, hitting on four out of eight cylinders…
we’re all in the same box in a client’s mind.
And it’s my goal—within my lifetime—to help change that. because if you go to your doctor or your lawyer, there’s a certain standard you expect. there’s a certain level of professionalism.
So why not in our industry? why not? there’s no reason we can’t reach that same standard. it’s just a mindset shift. we all have the capacity to do it.
And you wonder why doctors and lawyers can charge $400, $500, $600 an hour? yeah, they went to school—but it’s also about who can provide a result for the customer. how can we take them on a journey that gives them that result?
There are so many fun things when it comes to this kind of conversation—because at the end of the day, it’s about serving your clients. it’s about getting to know them. building those relationships.
Specifically—if you guys out there are mowing and you’re meeting with the same clients every week—think about it. your best customer—or your best way to sell to new customers—is your old customer.
If you take care of your old customer, guess what? referrals are the warmest kind of lead you could possibly ask for. if you’re taking care of Mrs. Jones down the street and she tells her friends, they call you—they’re already ready to say yes. you just have to give them a reason to say no. and if you just get your own foot out of your mouth, you’re going to move them right along—and end up taking on the whole block or her entire friend circle.
So if our goal is volume—how fast can I get to the next person?—we’re leaving behind the opportunity to serve the entire network of each of our customers. and it doesn’t cost us any more to do that. we don’t have to go out and spend tons of money on Facebook ads or Google Ads or anything else.
We don’t have to do that if our customers are standing on top of their roofs—figuratively—saying, “This is amazing! XYZ Landscaping came in and did a great job. They were awesome to work with. They took away all my fears. I had nothing to worry about.”
“They came in and just asked me questions. They were the first person to ever ask me questions. Everyone else just shows up and says, ‘Here’s the paver book, pick what you want.’ And I’ve got 61 choices, and I don’t know what to pick. And they talk about how they’re the best, how they’ve been around the longest, how their trucks are the cleanest, how their guys are all trained…”
And the client’s thinking, “That’s great, but I still don’t know if I want to do business with you. because you’re not listening to me—all you’re doing is talking about yourself.”
So when you mentioned earlier how it’s different when someone can go through a 30-minute conversation and—as a sales professional—ask six questions and have the client do most of the talking…
Our primer is: 80% of the sound should be coming out of your client’s mouth. 20% out of yours. and your 20% is just reaffirmation and good questions.
Let them paint the picture. give them the brushes.
The problem is, when you go in there wanting to be the hero—you want to sound the smartest: “I know the site, I know how to do this…” I used to be the one—like, “They’re paying me. It’s showtime! Let’s go. I’ve got to impress them with how smart I am.”
The problem is—the client’s like, “You never asked me any questions. You don’t know what I need, what I want, what I care about.”
“Yeah, he had a great presentation. But I don’t want to go with him. Because he doesn’t care about me.”
So anybody out there listening—if that’s what you do, you go in there trying to be the hero—I challenge you to stop. I challenge you to listen more than you speak.
There’s a difference between hearing and listening. Hearing is like, “Okay, I hear sound,” but you’re not absorbing it.
Listening is when you ask follow-up questions—and actually understand the context behind what they’re saying. and when you do that, clients feel it.
And when they feel it, it’s no longer a price game. now it’s about: who’s the best fit for this project?
And newsflash, guys: that means you can make more money doing this. and the client’s happy to pay it—because they’re getting more of what they want.
Ezra McCarthy
It’s so good. and the nice thing is—in our industry, like you mentioned—there’s so much mediocrity that if we just do these things you’re talking about, it becomes that much easier to stand out.
Do you have a customer story—or maybe even a customer that you worked with—where you used this approach and clearly saw how it made a difference in getting that sale?
Joshua Gillow
I’ve got tons of that kind of thing. I’ve been doing this kind of more questions and listening for years now, thank goodness. Before it was, there was one project. Here’s a project. Excited just started the design. No, this was still back in design build side of time. Yeah, this is probably about 20 years ago. And this client reached out to us. They just built this brand new home. I went in there. I was like, brand new home. It’s perfect development. This is going to be perfect. This is going to be the one. You guys are the listeners. You know what I’m talking about. You can win that development.
This is the one that’s going to make everything different. This is the one, it’s going to change. This is all the ones I’ve been dreaming about. I’ve been watching my competitors do these projects. This is going to be mine. Corner lot, perfect spot, brand new development. Everyone’s going to see this one. And I get in there and I’m like, all right, great. They started talking about, they wanted a swimming pool and they wanted a patio and they wanted some landscaping and privacy. And immediately my designer mind went crazy. I’m like, oh my goodness. And I wouldn’t talk about budget back then as well. I didn’t do that because that was just a dream killer. So I just decided to not do that because once they saw this idea, could they possibly say no to it? That was my thought. And I was like, all right, got this.
So I got out and I designed this entire space. I had seating walls around it, but they weren’t just seating walls. They had open spaces in them, so it looked like a castle around the outside. And it was this raised patio space with a lower patio space. It had this big waterfall into the pool. It had this structure on the side. It had this big staircase coming in, all the landscaping, lighting. It had all the things—some things they asked for and some things I said they couldn’t live without. I said,
I said they couldn’t live without. So I get there and I’m like, just wow, this is going to be the one, guys. This is $250,000—years ago, right? I had no idea what it was going to cost. Never did a project like this before. I went in and sat down with them and talked to them and showed them the whole thing. And they’re like, oh—they seemed really excited. This was good. Big smiles on their face. You could tell, now looking back at it, they were not really jiving with everything, but they were like, okay, let’s see what goes on.
And I said, okay, if everything looks good, you guys, I’ll put together a price. They’re like, yeah, everything looks good. We kind of need to have a number. They kind of wanted to see if they could say yes or no. Like, I can’t say yes, this is a good direction until we have a number. So I was like, okay, this is the dream killer side of things, right? I didn’t want to show them numbers yet. I still wanted to live in this fantasy of this being possible.
Eventually, I put the numbers together and went back and met with them and showed them the numbers. And yeah, the energy in the room shifted pretty quick, right? Because they were thinking about a hundred grand and I had this one at 250. And we couldn’t find a bridge between 100 and 250. So that project died right there on the table. Whether you brought the paddles out or not. He said, “Clear,” bang, hit it—dead. That was it. Never heard from that client again.
And I say that because back in those days, I thought it was all about impressing them with expertise, being the hero. What I realized—and that was just one of many moves that I made in the early days, because I didn’t know any different—eventually I realized, going through with Donald Miller and understanding StoryBrand, that wait a minute, what if I was the guide?
What if I asked questions like a detective, put my detective hat on and just asked questions, acting like I have some theories of what I think could be good here, but needing some evidence that it’s actually going to be a good, valuable exchange for the client? Because if they don’t get more use or comfort out of this decision, what good is it?
We tell our clients that directly. Guys, look, we can have a lot of ideas, but if you don’t get more use and more comfort out of the idea, you’re not spending any money with us to do it. We’re going to cut it right there. If you say, look, I don’t need a roof over my patio because I’m going to sit out under the stars, under the sun—I love doing that—then why are we doing it? Why are we doing it? If you don’t get more use and comfort, we’re not doing it.
That kind of conversation with customers—or this is another great one that works for anybody listening—is if you’re working with a client that wants to have a fire pit, and I don’t know what markets are charging for fire pits now, let’s just call it 5,000 for easy sake, right? $5,000 fire pit. And you’re talking to the client like, yeah, I want to burn that probably two or three times a year, roast some s’mores, that kind of thing. You’re like, okay.
In the past, I would have taken that bait. Yep, no problem. $5,000 fire pit. I don’t care how often you use it because you’re just a check for me, right? It doesn’t matter what you do afterward. It does matter what they do afterward. Because as soon as that project’s done, they’ve signed the check, and they’re sitting outside looking at that fire pit, they’re like, that’s $5,000. And a year later, they’re like, used it twice. It’s kind of something I just trip around every time I go out there. I wish somebody would have helped me or discouraged me from doing that.
And then that great experience they had with you becomes a negative experience. Now they feel like they’ve been bamboozled—like this guy should know better. He does this all the time. So what I plead for anybody out there listening that this is resonating with is, offer your clients some options. Let them fight for that fire pit. A $5,000 fire pit—say, guys, look, we can do a built-in fire pit for five grand. We can also do a fire table for two grand. Fire table you can move around, switch out when your style changes, move it up on the deck, down to the patio, put it behind the shed.
And you get all that space to repurpose and reuse for something else. If you’re having a party, you got more space. What do you want to do? You want to save some money and go with the fire table, or must this be built-in for you guys to use it more?
And you’d be surprised at the shift in trust. Remember that bridge—you talked about trust. When you’re like, this guy’s not trying to sell me, he’s trying to save me money. You do that, here’s what happens. This is where the magic happens.
All of a sudden, that 50 or 100 thousand dollar budget the client had starts creeping up. They’re like, if I can trust this guy, what else could we do? They’re going to start opening up different levels of relationship. They’re going to start opening up to what else is on their heart to share. Because they’re very guarded when you start—most are, right? You’re the contractor, they’re the homeowner. So there’s this guarded nature, like I’ve got to put up this shield.
Imagine if you could take the shield down and just have an honest human-to-human conversation. What is that like? It’s when everything changes. But they have to see that you care, that you’re willing to spend the time and build a relationship, not just looking for revenue. That you’re willing to trust them, and they’re willing to trust you. And that’s when all of this starts to change.
Ezra McCarthy
So, good. You mentioned you used to not include price. When did that change and then how do you approach price in the sales process now?
Joshua Gillow
Excellent question. The reason why I shifted from not telling people price to telling them price is because I was tired of losing. I was so tired of thinking in my head, they have to know how much this stuff costs. I mean, come on guys—like everybody knows what a swimming pool and a patio and landscaping and a seating wall costs, right?
They don’t. They might do it once or twice in a lifetime. That’s it. They might have an idea of what a patio might cost because their uncle, twice removed from the family 20 years ago, put in a concrete slab. And that’s what they’re thinking. Because they talked at a party once, after drinking too much wine, and he told them it was 12 grand to do that. So now, that’s what a patio costs—12 grand.
They don’t think about inflation. They don’t think about any of those things. Somewhere there was an event and an emotion wired to it. Now they’ve got a conclusion. The conclusion is: patio equals 12 grand.
I come in so many years later and say, well, that same broom-finished concrete or paver patio—same basic size that the uncle’s was—is now 30,000. And they’re like, this guy’s trying to take advantage of me. It’s showing me 12. But you never know where they’re getting this primer from. You don’t know where it’s coming from.
We need to figure that out. Because if it’s way off because times have changed and they just haven’t, we need to help them understand that—not tell them they’re wrong. We need to help them understand it.
So when it comes to budget, it is important. Super important. There are three things that clients are looking for specifically when you’re doing design work. There are three things that all of them want to know—but not all of them know how to articulate or have the guts to ask.
First is: what’s it going to look like? They want certainty. Like we talked about earlier—certainty and uncertainty. They want certainty moving forward. Whoever, whatever company can give them the most certainty and the most value—not always cheaper, the most value and certainty—has the highest probability of closing that project. Value and certainty.
If you come in with less value—you’re just like everybody else—and no certainty, like “Yeah, we can get to it later this year… maybe… kind of… could be… possibly”—like all of those minimizing words people use in their language—right? If you’re like that, next thing you know they’re like, well, this guy, I’m pretty sure we’re going to get success from. And this guy—I don’t know, he might be a little cheaper, but we’re gambling here. And if they’re not gambling people, they’re most likely going to go with the one with certainty.
So, what’s it going to look like? Next is: what’s it going to cost me? They need to know that right away. How fast can you get that to them?
Because there’s this whole arc—this whole arc from “we’re designing our backyard” to “we’ve got to pay for our backyard.” It’s called the fantasy-to-reality arc. I’ve coined that now. And I’ve seen it thousands of times at this point, where you have clients that say, “Budget doesn’t matter,” and “We want all of these things in our yard,” and “Everything is perfect,” and “We don’t want to miss anything.”
“Mini Disneyland back here.” “We’re so excited for this.”
And you’re like, “Okay, no problem, Mrs. Jones, we’ll just keep designing.”
“Oh, this is amazing, it’s so beautiful.”
“Yeah, I want a waterfall and a grotto and I want this and I want that…”
At some point, Ezra, that fantasy land has to take on the appearance of reality.
And if we aren’t careful, that’s where we can lose them. If we get so excited with them—or we’re talking to the bird dog…
There’s two characters in most of our sales transactions. We have the bird dog, who is the easily excitable one—the one that filled out your form online, the one that took your phone call—has really very little care about budget, wants all the stuff on her list or his list, and is real easy to work with. That’s the bird dog.
Then you have the banker, which is the one in the background that says, “Yep, nope.”
And it’s not male or female—it doesn’t matter. That’s the dynamic of most relationships: the bird dog and the banker. One is more in the fantasy, and the other is more grounded in reality. So we have to be careful. First of all, we want to talk to both of them so we can get a more uniform, unilateral feeling for how this is going to work. And also so we can set expectations.
But if we’re stuck working with that bird dog the entire time and everything is great—and all of a sudden the banker comes in later and says, “$100,000 for a backyard? Are you crazy woman? Are you crazy dude?” We’re not doing it. “We’re only going to be here for another three to five years. We’re not doing that. We’re not going to see a dollar of that back at the end.”
All of that work—all of it—is for nothing.
And so you asked me, why did I start doing it? Because I was tired of that. I said, we need to get better at it.
So the first thing is: what’s it going to look like?
The second: what’s it going to cost me?
And the third: who’s going to build it?
And how do you differentiate your crews or subcontractors from everybody else’s—when technically, they do similar things in a customer’s mind? How do you stand out?
That’s called a value stack system. That’s what we train a lot in our sales process.
How do you set up a value stack that differentiates your company from everybody else’s—obvious difference. So they’re like, wow. Just over the phone they’ll know there’s something very different coming.
And if you don’t do that and you’re just like, “Yeah, we do 3D design, I’ll give you a budget, and our crews are the best”—you and the last six people they just called said that. And all of them are like, “I don’t know who to pick.”
But imagine if they called somebody and they’re like, “Okay, still doing 3D design, but we actually add a value stack,” and then add a so that extension to the statement.
Like:
“We do 3D design so that you’ll never have to live with the regret of making quick decisions that haunt you for years.”
“We show you a budget study early so that you don’t come back to us shocked when the budget ends up 10 times more than you ever wanted to spend.”
“I never want you to experience that.”
“And we only have the very best craftsmen working on our projects so that you feel confident and proud every time you step outside.”
All these so thats.
So they understand—back to Donald Miller’s philosophy—not burning all these calories trying to figure out why it matters for them specifically and how it benefits them.
If we can do all that math for them, next thing you know, they’re like, “All right, cool. Sounds like this guy’s got his stuff under control. I can see why this makes more sense and why there’s higher value. And why I should pay more for that.”
Obviously, this is a very simplified version of all of that just for our time together. But the reality is, when you set up a solid value stack with your customers, they’re going to be like, “This guy gets me. This woman gets me. We don’t need to call anybody else. This is the one.”
Ezra McCarthy
This is so good. Now, all this information is very helpful—but obviously just kind of a primer. Hopefully they, no doubt, got a lot of value today. But could you tell us—because we want to be careful of your time—you’ve got a podcast called Sales Made Simple, but you also have something called Yes Express.
And if they want to hear more info—just like the great value you’ve already been giving—how could they find you? And who might this be best for if they’re looking to up their sales game?
Joshua Gillow
Yep. Thank you for that. So yeah, I have a podcast—Sales Made Simple. Been doing it now for the last four years, specifically for our industry. It is for the landscapers, the hardscapers, the outdoor living professionals. That’s all it’s for. That’s my background. That’s what I know best. I lived, ate, and breathed that for most of my adult life. Made a lot of the mistakes that a lot of the guys out there are making—and made a lot of good decisions too. So I like to share that stuff.
Sales Made Simple podcast—you can find it anywhere you get podcasts. So go on and take a listen. This is the kind of stuff we talk about all the time.
And then as far as Yes Express, I started that about six years ago when I saw a massive need in the market for communication—improving people’s communication, giving them the tools to be able to communicate better.
What I mean by that is, most of us—including myself in the beginning—we were really good doers. Like building stuff. Man, give me a hammer, give me a shovel, give me some block, give me some pavers—I’ll go all day at that thing, right? But what I struggled with, and what I kept hitting walls on, was that I didn’t know how to communicate.
And I don’t mean just being able to talk. I mean things like being able to understand exactly how to build great rapport—not just ignore it because the customer’s a little bit dry. Like, how do we build rapport with just about anybody? How do we get them focused? How do we figure out what the primary driver for this project is? Because it’s not always the 17 things she wants. There’s one or two in that list that are absolutely must-haves, and everything else orbits around them. So let’s get them clarified.
Then get into the deeper “why.” Why are they doing this project—deep down? Understanding tonality is important.
“Why are you doing this project?” is different than, “Mrs. Jones, if you don’t mind me asking, why this project? Why now?” Different, right? It’s all about tonality at that point. Is it coming from a sense of curiosity or a sense of judgment?
There’s a lot of ways we have to be extremely aware of ourselves as sales professionals so we can meet our clients where they are and get the information we need to serve them at the highest level.
And that, my friends, is how you get to a higher margin per project. It’s by slowing it down. Learning how to communicate.
That’s why I started Yes Express—to help others with the things I struggled with. Once we broke through in our company and doubled sales in a year with these techniques, it was like, wait a minute. Maybe it’s just us. I don’t know—we got lucky, whatever.
Started training people around the country and they started getting similar results. And I’m like, whoa, okay. We’ve got something here. Let’s help. Let’s help people start to have better conversations and teach them the sales tools they never learned.
Because I don’t know about you, Ezra, but when I started my first and second company, I got my EIN number. I knew exactly who to pay taxes to. I never received my How to Run a Business Profitably book. Have you? Did the government ever send you yours? Because I didn’t see mine.
How do you communicate? How do you sell? How do you market? How do you do—none of that stuff. You had to learn it in the trenches by making a lot of mistakes. Costly mistakes. Realizing there has to be a better way.
So, over 10 years of personal development, business development, sales training—all that stuff—finally got to a point where I’m like, now it all makes sense. Right? But it took all of those punches, those ducks, those broken bones to figure it out.
Now I’m like, now I can help others. They don’t have to go through all the pain I went through in order to get to that longer result, which is to serve our clients at the highest level and make good money so we can take our families on vacations, put money away, retire early—all the things we all aspired to do when we started our business.
There is a path there, ladies and gentlemen. There is a path there. You just have to want to prioritize your time to figure it out.
Ezra McCarthy
So good, Josh. And if this is something you’re interested in, be sure to check out his podcast and the Yes Express. Thank you so much for tuning in today to the Lawn Care Success Blueprint. A big shout out to Josh for sharing his expertise and dropping a lot of value.
If you found value in today’s podcast, be sure to subscribe, leave a rating and review, and we’ll catch you on the next one.
