Ezra McCarthy
Welcome back to the lawn care blueprint. Today I’m joined by John Payjack, business owner, podcaster, coach who’s bought, grown and led multiple lawn and landscaping companies. And we’re going to dive into some different topics. We’re going to dive into business acquisition, team building mindset, and things that separate the hustler from a real business owner. So let’s get into it. John, sure glad you’re here today.
John Pajak
Thanks for having me on Ezra, really appreciate it and looking forward to the conversation today.
Ezra McCarthy
I’ve been trying to have you get on for a while, so it’s good to have you here. So we’ll just kind of hop right into the business acquisition side. When evaluating a potential business, what are some things that you look for that you think are maybe some green lights, maybe some red lights? And this is something I’ve been interested in, as one of the customers that I work with recently acquired a fertilization and weed control business. And I really like a book by John Warrillow—I feel like I’m pronouncing his last name wrong—but Built to Sell, really good book. Highly recommend everyone read it.
This is something I’ve been pondering. Definitely not looking to sell myself, but are we building so that it is an asset rather than just merely a job? Kind of a large question there, but John, would you be able to riff on that for a little while here?
John Pajak
Yeah, absolutely. That’s a great way to position your business in the first place. Even if you never have any intentions of selling it, if you build it like you’re going to sell it, it keeps you accountable in your business. It keeps you kind of streamlined. You’re not going to be… like, I’ve known quite a few people that have sold their businesses for big money. They built their business, got it to a certain point, and other people—private equity or other companies—have said, hey, we want to acquire you.
And going through that process itself, where they go through all of your financials, they said it’s like, wow, if we would have known back then, maybe we wouldn’t have bought the Corvette or the motorcycle or whatever it was the quote-unquote business bought. It’s like, no, no, we know what you did there. We see what you did. That’s not good. Okay, check a box—lower price.
Always look at it: build to sell. And one of the big red flags that I look for…
That would make me walk away from any kind of purchase is if their books are messier than a toddler with a Sharpie. Just like, frightening. Their numbers, their bookkeeping—things like that are extremely messy—then I’m skeptical. Is it a deal breaker? Not necessarily.
But I’ll tell you what the deal breaker is for me: when an owner can’t show what they paid themselves. That’s a very simple one. And if they’re just pulling their pay from profits, well, that’s not truly profits. They’re not accounting for their own role. So they’re basically just living off of the leftovers. And basically, I’m not going to buy a business that isn’t going to feed the owner. Why am I going to buy something that is not beneficial to me?
Ezra McCarthy
John, we’ve mentioned those red flags. As business owners listening in, even if we have no intention of selling, how can we structure things in a way so that if someone did walk in, they’re pleasantly surprised and it makes the business attractive? Whatever your profit margins are in that specific business, it’s like someone walks in and they’re like, wow, this is what I want.
John Pajak
Yeah, to make it as turnkey as possible. You don’t want to just go in and say, look at all the stuff we have, look at this, look at that. You really want it to be like, okay, what do you do in the business? You ask the owner, and most owners will tell you, I do… I’m a technician, I do the sales, marketing—I do everything. They wear 500 hats.
When you’re looking at that, you have to ask, is that what I want to do? Am I going to be a slave to this thing? Because I’m not buying a turnkey business. I’m basically paying for this guy’s escape hatch. He’s trying to get out of this, and instead of being able to just invest money into it and make money, now I’ve got to do a ton of work to make it function.
Little warning signs like that—you just need to communicate and make sure you know what you’re getting yourself into. That should be a very big deciding factor in whether you buy something or you don’t.
Ezra McCarthy
Helpful, John. So I’m just curious here—say there’s a business that’s experiencing pretty good growth, but they’re thinking to themselves, okay, even now looking toward next year and saying, we want to grow significantly. We’re looking at possibly buying out some businesses, maybe acquiring, or maybe we should just grow organically.
So if someone’s at that crossroads—and in all reality, we’re just about halfway through the year—businesses that are looking to grow are probably already thinking about next year. With that in mind, what would be the weighing factors between saying, hey, I’m going to look at the acquisition route or I’m going to go the organic route?
John Pajak
You know, for me, whether you’re going to buy an existing company or do it organically, you as the buyer—if you’re ever going to consider this—you really need to know what your CAC is, your customer acquisition cost. And the thing that I’ve looked at in the past is, if I can attract the same number of clients for less than what they’re asking, I’d rather grow organically. It’s a little bit cleaner that way.
Ezra McCarthy
Can you explain a little more? Why is that?
John Pajak
Yeah, so let’s just say you find that you could acquire a new client for, let’s say, $150. That’s what it costs you, okay? If they’re selling their business and their book of business, and they’re asking for more than that, there have to be several factors that make it worth the additional cost.
So let’s say our client acquisition cost is $150, and they’re selling their book of business for, basically, $200 per client. Now, I’m not saying that’s out of the question—because if you look at factors like route density, where you’re buying actual clusters and the routes are very tight, very close together—that adds value.
You’d also want to make sure their pricing structure is proper. It’s not like, “Yeah, they have all this route density, but they’re also the budget service company in the area and their prices are too low.” You’d want to make sure the prices are…
You also want to make sure—this is kind of an objection, but it’s the way you’ve got to perceive it—do they have a loyal fan base? Do they have customers who are truly loyal, or are they just warm bodies on a list?
We have to understand the difference between a customer and a client. You want to make sure these people aren’t just names—they’re not just transactions. You need to take a harder look at that.
Most of these guys try to sell loose routes, underpriced routes, ones that have no systems, no hardcore fans in their customer base. And it’s all transactional. It’s not like those people are going to call you for additional services you may offer.
A lot of times, the guys that are selling stuff—they’re not really selling a business. They’re basically selling a Craigslist ad with a logo. That’s kind of how you’ve got to look at it sometimes.
Ezra McCarthy
I had a friend who was looking at acquiring a business. Someone was looking to get out of it, and the guy was trying to sell his business for—I think it was—around $250,000. But when I started breaking it down, he was selling it with equipment.
I broke the numbers down for my friend and said, hey, if you bought brand new trucks, brand new mowers—literally had everything brand new—and divided that cost by how many customers he had, you could actually get brand new trucks and acquire the customers for less. Literally. And have brand new everything.
Because the guy had worked really hard in the business, but he had built himself a job. He didn’t really have a business. And I strongly discouraged my friend. I said, you are insane—don’t spend that for this company. You could literally buy everything brand new and get those customers for tens of thousands of dollars less.
And obviously, I feel for the guy. He worked hard in it for years…
But he hasn’t built a business—he’s really built a job. And I think this is something, as business owners, we need to think about, even if we never plan to sell. Because there may be an instance where we need to. And at that point, we’re really going to wish, I wish I had a business and not just a job.
John Pajak
Yeah, just to add to that, a lot of people think the equipment is the crown jewel. A lot of the sellers, that’s what they think—they’re like, the equipment’s the crown jewel. But nine times out of ten, it’s just a fleet of rattletraps that are basically an oil change away from retirement. Very high-mileage vehicles, very high hours on machines.
And when it comes to buying someone out—now, I don’t have as much personal experience with this—but I’ve advised many people on it. Done the same thing, ran numbers for folks and said, I don’t think this is going to be a good acquisition for you.
I’ve had friends in the business who’ve bought and sold companies, and they trade them like trading cards—it’s like their hobby. One friend in particular, that’s what he does. He buys businesses and takes the best parts of them.
But yeah, you really have to look closely at what they’re selling and what you’re actually going to get. Quick little side-note story—I encountered a client of mine who had purchased a business and…
He kind of felt a little bit guilty because the guy was an older gentleman selling his business, thought he was going to be able to move down to Florida and retire. And after all was said and done, he thought he was going to get six or seven figures for this thing. He was hoping to get close to seven figures—he thought that’s what it was worth.
And the saddest thing was, he sat down—there was a mediator, the attorneys were present. This wasn’t like he was getting taken advantage of. But at the end of the day, they were sitting there, and the deal was for $55,000. For this business he thought he was going to make a million dollars off of.
And the person—I didn’t have anything to do with the deal—but other people who are more savvy in this kind of thing, they were just like, yeah, this is what this business is actually worth.
Ezra McCarthy
Can you give us a ballpark—if you’re allowed to say—what was the business running roughly then? Because man, if he was asking seven figures, I’m thinking this must’ve been a large business. What was the size?
John Pajak
It wasn’t that big. Gross revenue was under a million. So he just—I don’t know exactly what he was thinking—thought that because he had equipment and a larger book of business, it was worth a lot more.
But really what ended up happening was, they didn’t want any of the equipment, they didn’t want any of the other things, because there was nothing behind it. There was no receptionist, nobody to do anything. The owner basically would’ve just been, again, buying an additional job.
So it was kind of sad to hear about, but at the end of the day, he really just bought the book of business. And the seller—he was delusional, in a sense, about what his business was actually worth.
Ezra McCarthy
I really like what you said earlier, John—you may not have even meant it, or maybe you said it on purpose—but how many fans do you have? And this is something that’s so important, because there’s a big difference between someone who you pull up to, they ask for a quote, you give them the quote, and they sign up… versus someone you’ve worked with for three years, and even when they get three other quotes, they still choose you.
Because if we have a book of people that are invested in you—as a company, as a brand—I think that’s where the real value is. And I think people get really off on this brand stuff. There’s a really good book called…
It ain’t the logo—and I highly recommend that book. A fellow wrote it, and this is something people get all tied up in. Obviously, it needs to look nice, but I think people get focused on the wrong thing here. They think their brand is the colors in their logo, but it’s really about consistently, over time, how you treat your customers.
The best example I like to give is Apple. What does an apple have to do with a computer? Zero. But literally the world over, if you just say “Apple” in reference to computers, probably 80 to 90 percent of people know exactly what you’re talking about. Why? Because it stands for something.
And as a business, we want our business to stand for something. So as soon as customers hear it in your local market—whether that’s lawn care, landscaping, fertilization, weed control—whether it’s TurfTamers, they think, hey, John’s business, TurfTamers, they’re going to take care of me.
And it’s not about what kind of price he gave or anything like that. So maybe a little bit of a tangent, but brand definitely factors into all this.
Because if you have a strong brand in your local community that people care about, that does add a lot to the equation. Now, you can’t just ignore the other things—the financials, the systems—but all of these things are interconnected. It all goes into it. I just wanted to kind of mention that.
John Pajak
Yeah, and I totally agree. Like with my company, it’s funny—I got out of mowing. We finally discontinued our mowing division in 2024. I didn’t even sell it. I didn’t sell the list. I had this legacy list, basically, of people we still did mowing for. I’d reduced it down over the years to just focus on fertilization and weed control.
And the younger guy that I gave it to—I just introduced him to all the clients I had. I did all the talking and said, listen, he’s going to take care of it for you. I trust him.
And the crazy thing is, every single person—because we introduced each one of my clients to him in person—we just went driving around one day to do it. Everybody came out like, “John, how you doing?” Gave me a hug and everything. And I didn’t think anything of it. That’s just the way it is with my clients.
I remember him asking, “How do you find such good clients? How do you find such good people?” And I’m like, “I don’t know, I just do.” And he’s like, “Yeah, but everybody came out and they…”
…hugged you or shook your hand, and they were so happy to see you.” And I was like, “Yeah, I don’t know—maybe it’s just the way I treat people.” And he goes, “None of my clients do that.” Well, we probably have different ways of interacting with people. I keep it professional, but at the same time, there’s a bond that we build—and they become ravenous fans.
They’re the kind of people who say, “Hey, this guy just moved in—want me to go say hi to him for you?” And I’m like, “That’d be great. Make the intro.” These are people that, even though I gave away the mowing route, they’re still my clients—because I’m still taking care of their property with fertilization and weed control.
So having that kind of relationship really impressed him. Honestly, I should’ve sold those accounts instead of just giving them to him—I could’ve made myself a tidy little sum.
Ezra McCarthy
To really just add to something you said there—there’s a good quote, and I’m going to try to paraphrase it. It says, “People don’t remember what you do for them, they remember how you make them feel.”
And this is something, in our industry, that people do a terrible job at. We’re really good at cutting grass. We’re really good at putting up that retaining wall, doing the fertilization and weed control. But there’s a really good book by Joey Coleman—we’re actually going to have him on here in a couple of months—called Never Lose a Customer Again.
It basically walks you through the customer journey. At each point, he talks about touch points—connecting with them and building a relationship between your brand and the customer.
And I think that’s something that’s really lacking, especially because we’re seasonal. It’s something really worth pondering—just sitting down and saying, okay, what’s my customer journey from quote to renewal to servicing? And at each point, how can I introduce intentional touch points?
Which—at this point, if you’re listening to this podcast—you’re probably already giving good service. But think about how you can better the customer experience. Because I’ll tell you, there’s an example: there are two grocery stores in the little dinky town I live outside of. And I think I’ve been in one of them maybe twice—literally.
When I go in, it’s not dirty per se, but it doesn’t feel as clean. The team members inside… they’re just, I don’t know. It doesn’t have that feel of cleanliness or customer service.
And as service businesses…
Just the example of those two grocery stores—man, groceries are insane here. And just based on that, that one store has earned thousands of dollars from me over the past couple of years. And they’re earning a lot more, trust me. Just by how they present themselves, how the team members carry themselves, and the overall feel of the store.
So as service business owners, how can we do the same thing? How can we create a better experience and connect the customer to us, so it’s not about, “Wait, they’re $5 more to cut,” or anything like that?
They’re willing to wait an extra two or three weeks because you’re booked out—because they want you, not just the project done.
John Pajak
Maya Angelou is probably who you were trying to paraphrase. It’s, “People will forget what you say. People will forget what you do. But people will always remember how you made them feel.” That’s it. I quote that all the time because it’s true.
And it does set a standard, in a sense—like you said, the difference between the two grocery stores. One is “eh,” and the other one makes me feel better. Hey, guess what? I’m going to remember that. I’ll remember, “eh, the other place”—I’ll go there if I absolutely have to.
But I feel more welcome at the other place.
It’s the same thing for me—I’m a true advocate of voting with my wallet when it comes to stores, fast food, restaurants, anything like that, or any kind of service. If I feel like I was disrespected in any way, or the service wasn’t that great, I’ll remember that.
And it’s not like a one-shot-and-you’re-done deal. I’m pretty lenient—I’ll give especially restaurants up to three strikes. But three strikes and you’re out.
That’s happened with some of our…
…favorite restaurants. Bad service, whatever—okay, maybe it’s a really hectic night. Second time, go back in—nope, the service isn’t any better. It’s actually getting worse. The quality of the food’s starting to go down.
We give them another try—let’s just give them one more shot. We’ll go back in, but we’re going to extend the time between visits. Let’s give it a month, maybe two months.
Then we go back after two months… and things are terrible. Things are on fire. That’s it—we’re not coming here anymore. I’m not spending another dollar in here, because I don’t feel respected.
Ezra McCarthy
So good. And it’s true. This is something I think we’re really lacking. People like to hear about the stripes and they like to hear what kind of mower you have, but really, customer experience is so valuable.
I remember Jonathan Potoschnick, when he had Service Autopilot—I remember hearing him talk about that. He said he’d talk to a business owner for 50 minutes and they wouldn’t mention the software at all. That’s a CRM, by the way. And then at the end of the call, they’d be like, “Oh, this is great, I’m going to sign up.” And he’d say, “You didn’t ask me about the software at all!”
And he’d jokingly say, “Man, they’re terrible at buying software.” But the reason why was—he connected with them. He talked to them, answered their questions, and they bought. It obviously sounded like the product was good, but they really bought because of the person.
In business, so many times, people don’t care about the stripes. I’ve presented to people—if you’re not a lawn care guy, you don’t care. They want their grass cut, but they also want the experience.
This is a bit of a side tangent, but it’s something I’m really passionate about. I love reading about it. Seth Godin is another good read—my favorite book is Purple Cow.
Make sure to check that one out—really talks about experience and how you make people feel.
But we’ll backtrack a little bit here and dive into the numbers. John, what’s a number or metric that you pay attention to now, that early on—when you were starting to grow your business—just wasn’t on the radar?
John Pajak
Yeah, I’ll go right back to the CAC—customer acquisition cost. The reason being, I used to think marketing was kind of like guesswork. But now, let’s go back to that number. Let’s say it costs me $150 to acquire a new client, right? And when I get that client, they’re going to generate, say, $1,000 per season. Okay—I’ll happily spend it.
Let’s say I want to get 10 new clients. I’ll happily spend $1,500 to get 10 clients that are going to result in $10,000 for the season.
Then, if you think about it, I also look at our customer lifetime value. Now that I’ve been in business long enough to have good numbers, I find that most of our clients have a lifecycle of about five years. We have clients that have been with us since day one, but for the most part, when you look at the trends, we have…
…people that come in, and they’re in our system for about five years. Then something happens—they move on, they move away, they unfortunately pass away—whatever it might be.
If you think about that, by bringing in 10 clients who stay for five years, that’s $50,000 over that average lifecycle for the $1,500 that I spent.
So when you look at it like that, that’s not an expense—that’s a money-making machine. Metrics like your CAC are very important to track. It’s something you might be completely unaware of—maybe you’ve never even heard about it before.
Because I know, especially in the green industry—the lawn and landscape world—we’ve got a lot of great technicians, but they’re a little behind or slower on the business end of things. That wasn’t the focus. Like you were saying earlier, they’re more focused on the stripes. They’re more focused on what kind of equipment they’re running.
They’re more focused on things that are important to some degree—but that’s from a technician’s point of view, not an actual business owner’s point of view.
Ezra McCarthy
And it’s so easy—I think you get into the trap of, especially if you’re in the field, you’re thinking about next week. You’re thinking about the rain you just got today and how it’s scrunching the schedule, rather than thinking long-term.
Like right now—we’re recording this at the end of May, it’ll come out later—but most guys are thinking maybe a week or two ahead. Instead of thinking, okay, if I can spend this $1,500 in the next month or two, I could generate $50,000 over the lifespan of those customers.
It’s so easy to get stuck in the moment and forget about the business as a whole. And I think part of breaking out of that is listening to people who are ahead of you, having conversations like this, getting interviews like this, and starting to surround yourself with people who have that bigger-picture mindset.
And I remember—I love listening to podcasts and stuff. Alex Hormozi has a really good concept in one of his older podcasts where he talks about changing your measuring stick.
And what I mean by that is, if you’re around people who think $1,000 is a lot of money, you’re going to start using that as your measuring stick. But if you get around people who think in terms of $50,000 or $100,000, it shifts your perspective and how you look at things.
Instead of thinking, “Wow, we grew by $10,000 this year,” and believing that’s a big deal—which it’s not—you start to change your measuring stick.
That’s something I enjoy. There are people out there who are way ahead of me, and I might not even be trying to get to their level, but I like listening to them because it changes my mindset. Instead of thinking small potatoes, you go to a place like Equip and realize—wow—there are literally thousands of other people, a lot of them way ahead of where you are right now.
The question becomes, what can I learn from them, and how can I take that and apply it to grow my business?
I mean, I love that measuring stick analogy, because it’s true. If you get around people who are hesitant to spend money to grow their business, that becomes your mindset too.
Most of the guys I deal with—especially in coaching calls—they’re focused on equipment. They’re like, “Well, I don’t know… if I get this one machine, then everything’s going to be easier.”
I remember back in the day, I bought a brand-new 52-inch stand-on mower. After I got it, I didn’t get any additional phone calls. Nobody knew I had it, and frankly, nobody cared what kind of machine I had. They just wanted their lawn cut.
If you’re trying to move the needle in your business, it’s not the equipment—it’s whether you’re attracting new clients into your business. And again, we’re mainly talking about acquiring other businesses to help enhance that growth, but it goes hand in hand.
It’s not necessarily about the equipment. It’s about getting the clients. Because once you have the clientele, you can go buy any machine you want—multiple times. If you know how to flip that switch and turn on new money that’s coming in… that money is the blood. It’s the lifeblood of our businesses.
That’s way more valuable than just focusing on the equipment or the shiny, sexy things.
Ezra McCarthy
That’s something that’s a pet peeve of mine. I was listening to something the other day where they were comparing different brands of weed trimmers—weed eaters. And I’m thinking to myself, most of these are really good. I have a preference for Stihl, but there are so many good brands out there. For the most part, unless you’re getting some electric weed eater from Home Depot or something—it doesn’t matter.
Business isn’t about whether you’re using an Ego electric or a Stihl. It just doesn’t matter. Your customer doesn’t care. Ninety-nine percent of them don’t care.
Who cares if you’re using an Exmark or a Wright or a Scag? It does not matter. What does matter is your business, your team members, your customer acquisition costs, your systems. Those are the true lifeblood of the business. And I think that’s just really important to recognize.
So this kind of goes into another question I have here. John, how would you recommend someone decide when it’s time to reinvest in growth—or perhaps keep things lean and focus on increasing profits?
John Pajak
In my opinion, it’s based on short-term goals that serve the long game. If the move is going to create more margin, more momentum, or it’s meaningful to you and your business—then it’s a yes. If it’s just noise, I’m going to keep lean and stay the course.
Because, simply put, it really does come down to goals. Too many business owners don’t understand that there’s no finish line. There’s no “winning” in a sense.
If you’re building a business, you have to set stepping stones—little milestones to get to the next big thing. Because if you’re staring at some big, huge goal—whatever it might be—just imagine you’re facing a 90-degree wall that goes up 70 feet. You look up at this thing and think, “That’s my goal—to get to the top.” How do you do that?
You’re not just going to teleport to the top. You’re not going to float up there. It’s not going to just happen.
What you have to do is make little stepping stones—or like, let’s say you’re wall climbing, right? There are these tiny little nubs coming out of the wall that you’ve got to grab onto. It’s like, “All right, there’s a ledge I can see from down there. I can stand here for a second.” That’s your short-term goal. Boom. You hit it.
But you’ve got to keep going. You can’t sit there. You can’t live there. You have to get to the top. And once you get to the top of that wall, there’s always another level you can reach.
But there are little layers of safety—places where you can pause and be cool for a while. So for me, that’s what it is. If something increases our profits, if it keeps the momentum of the business going—those are the things I think about when deciding whether to reinvest in growth.
Ezra McCarthy
This is something that’s so good—and I think I actually want to do a whole podcast about it—because goals are personally really important to me. And I think in business, so many times, we get caught in the daily grind.
And if your team members don’t know what your business goal is—at least to some extent—I think you’re not doing it right. Because if you’re not giving your team a clear vision, you’re not going to have a clear goal to run toward.
Now, to be honest, I don’t know how much five- or ten-year goals are worth—because so much changes—but at the very least, you’ve got to have a one-year goal. Saying, “Hey, this is where we’re trying to get.”
Then, from there, you define your ultimate goal. Simon Sinek has a really good book called The Infinite Game, and it talks about having that long-term mission and how to present it. He has this metric that’s really useful—because like you mentioned, the real goal of business is to stay in business. And obviously, we want to do that profitably, with time and financial freedom. But goals are just so important to that journey.
So John, when you’re not feeling motivated, what part of the business—or what kind of goals or mindset—gets you excited and keeps you moving?
John Pajak
What keeps me going? I’m a weirdo—sometimes it’s the boring stuff. I go back and revisit a lot of the procedures we use: the SOPs, the systems. I want to refine them. It’s never going to be perfect the first time you put it out.
So once I get to a certain point and things are working okay, I think, “Alright, instead of trying to grow everything crazy right now, let’s revisit the foundation.” Let’s do some inspections. Let’s check to make sure the foundation isn’t cracked, make sure it’s not leaking water. Let’s tighten some things up.
That means going through how we bill out, how our estimates look—it’s kind of boring stuff. And I’ve found that some of the most valuable things I go back to are things like our follow-ups and renewals. Because it’s not flashy. You talk about it and people are like, “Snooze,” or…
They’re not going to be excited about it, but if you stay in touch and have good communication with your clients—if you send reminders, especially during certain times of the season, like, “Hey, remember we did this service for you last year? It’s about that time again”—it’s not necessarily an upsell. It’s just a reminder. And they go, “Yeah, I remember you did fertilization,” or whatever it was.
The thing is, when you take time to revisit things you’ve already done, and you can tweak it even just a little to make it better—or make it easier for you, your clients, and your technicians—it’s worth it.
Because if you keep everything simple, it makes scaling easier. It makes your day-to-day simpler. And a lot of those “unsexy” things I keep myself busy with—they’re not flashy, like I said—but that’s where the profit lives.
A lot of guys just chase new work. And we do that too, but…
I focus on keeping the work that we’ve already paid to earn. For those clients we invested money to bring into our ecosystem, it’s not like, “Alright, they’re here. Cool, we’re done.” No—we still nurture that relationship. We talk with them and make sure we’re serving them to the best of our ability.
That’s a huge thing. If you have that mindset—the mentality of serving others—it never feels like you’re upselling something.
If I’m on a property, maybe doing quality control or even just back in the field for a bit, and I notice something… yes, it might cost them more money to fix it, but I’d be doing them a disservice by not letting them know. It’s in their best interest. So I let them know, “Hey, there’s an issue here, we should get this fixed,” and I offer a solution.
It’s not like, “Yeah, we just need a little extra money right now, so I’m going to go upsell my existing clients.” No. If they don’t need it, I’m not going to push it.
Ezra McCarthy
I just want to jump in and highlight something here. There are two perspectives you just touched on—one is transactional, and the other is trust.
If we’re just looking at it as transactional—how much can I squeeze out of this customer, how much money can I milk from them—that’s a short-term game. But if we’re asking, “What can I do to serve them? How can I help?”—that’s the trust side. And hopefully, we’re all operating in that trust spectrum.
Because when you do, like you mentioned, you’ve got clients who’ve been with you for a long time—and that’s how you build a real business.
John, I’m just curious—our time’s winding down here—but this is a question I’ve pondered a lot: what does enough look like for you, and has that definition changed over the years?
John Pajak
Great question—because I used to think that “enough” had a dollar sign on it. But the truth is, you can make so much money and it never feels like enough. That’s the crazy thing. The more money you get, sometimes it’s just, “Well, I need a little bit more. Just a little more.”
I got tired of that. Now, don’t get me wrong—yes, you need money. But for me, money stopped being the goal a while ago. Being able to take care of my family and knowing we’re comfortable—that became the focus.
Yeah, there are times when I probably should push a little harder so that we’re in a better financial position. But at the same time, there’s always a trade-off. If I’m just chasing money, then I don’t have the time to be with the family I want to be with.
It’s a weird dynamic. I could have all the money—but is that enough? No. I also want to spend time with my family. But if I spend all my time with my family, then it’s like, “Well, I still need…”
…you know, back and forth. So instead of just looking at it as a money thing, I really look at it as: am I doing the best service for everyone? That means taking care of my current clientele to the best of my ability and staying within our scope of work.
Just yesterday, I visited a couple of clients—they’re only in their second season with us—and they were so happy with how everything’s shaping up. I was talking with them, and they asked, “Hey, what was done today?” So I explained in detail what application was put down.
They said, “Man, you’re so great. Do you know the guy who referred us to you? He sings your praises all the time. I’ve never seen someone talk about a service provider like that.” And then they said, “We’re going to tell all our neighbors—give us more cards, we’ll hand them out for you.”
And yeah, there’s a bit of pride in that—a little bit of ego—but at the same time, I know I’m truly serving people. And that’s enough for me.
We have new hires and things—being able to take care of them and their families—that’s enough. Again, that’s a very personal thing. It’s not really about the transactions.
Money is important—it is important, because I am “Profits with Payjack,” right? You have to make money. But at the same time, it goes a step deeper for me.
So I don’t know if that’s going to resonate with the listeners today, but personally, for me, that’s kind of where I strike my definition of “enough.”
Ezra McCarthy
John, you’ve got a podcast called Profits with Payjack, and I’d highly recommend anyone listening go check that out. But for those who might be interested in financial coaching—or just learning more—can you tell the listeners how you can serve them and where they can find you?
John Pajak
We’re on Profits with Payjack—it’s available on all the podcast platforms. So no matter what app you use, you’ll find us. Just search Profits with Payjack.
It’s the podcast where we share business strategies and financial insights for the green industry. And yeah, sometimes we throw a little humor in there—but for the most part, if you listen consistently, we’re really focused on helping you become a better business owner.
It’s about moving beyond being the “Chuck in the truck” or the “Dan in the van” just doing this as a side hustle—and instead actually creating and producing wealth and a legacy for you and your family.
Ezra McCarthy
This has been really helpful, John. Well, that’s a wrap—tons of gold in this episode about scaling smart and thinking like a true business owner.
If you found value in this episode, be sure to share it with a friend. And don’t forget to subscribe and leave a rating and review on Apple—that’s the best place to do it.
Until next time, keep building, let’s delegate, and stay focused on what moves the needle.
