Ezra McCarthy
Hello and welcome back to the Lawn Care Success Blueprint, the show where we talk with leaders who are shaping the green industry with lots of different things. Today we’re joined by Paul Brydges, the founder of Brydges Landscape Architecture and also the past president of the Landscape Ontario, the association there. Paul spent decades growing his landscape business into one of those respected design firms there in Canada, a fellow Canuck here.
And he’s here today to share what he’s learned along the way and we’re sure glad to have you here, Paul. Yeah, a good intro I like to kind of give people a background. So I mentioned a little bit what you’ve done, but would you describe kind of where you got into the grain industry? You’re more landscaping focused, but how you got into it and then where you are today.
Paul Brydges
Great, thanks for having me.
Sure. So I started my first company when I was 14, cutting grass where you can leave shoveling snow for, you know, neighbors and clients around a small lake we lived at. From there, they started asking me to build decks, patios, and do construction. So I was drawing them up and before I knew it, was really a landscape contractor doing maintenance and construction and didn’t even know what design, didn’t know what landscape architecture was, didn’t know the term. So when I found that through a high school guidance counselor, it sort of opened my eyes to what the world could be. So I love being outside.
I went and worked in design building for 20 years all across North America and then came back to Canada after that. I worked in design building for a while, but I’m in the year 21 of a pure design studio. We design for contractors now. That’s our main client base and then private clients for ourselves. Mostly residential, waterfront, estate, second home is our focus.
Ezra McCarthy
So these are probably high end and probably the clientele that’s doing just design rather than just throwing something together is, are these mostly high end clients there?
Paul Brydges
The clients that come direct to us would definitely say yes. They’re sort of the, you know, lot of them are kind of, know the 1%. But the designs we do for contractors, they rely on us for, tell me what Mrs. Johnson needs for a front yard tree. That’s the design. I know the soil conditions. I know the site. I know what will grow well. She wants something that flowers red in August, know, whatever the case may be. So no real very, no definition of what we will design or what we won’t. What do you need? And those, the small ones, are very rewarding and fulfilling.
If a client has $3,000 budget, what can you do for $3,000? We have projects we’re in year seven of construction in residential. They’re a different client to handle all on their own. So the cross section is really nice.
Ezra McCarthy
I’m just thinking about economics here. How is dealing with your skill level, your time, at least I would think is very valuable. How is that worth your time?
Paul Brydges
The biggest answer is I love what I do and I try and charge what I feel is fair to the client. So our contractor network, we have a slightly preferred rate for them, but they know they get great value out of me and some of them I work with for 20 years. So if they call me and they send me a text a picture and they say, I’ve got this is my front yard, this is my aspect, this is the wind, this is what we need. What do I do? I can talk to them through it on the phone. Those contracts, like they don’t get a bill from that.
I like it, but I keep 15 minutes in the brain bank. So next time I work the better part of an hour, I build them an hour. And they know that I build them for my time, but I want to help them succeed. And they know that I’ll support them. They support me.
Ezra McCarthy
So what made you go into the design aspect rather than the building? Because obviously it sounds like you did that at one point. ⁓
Paul Brydges
Career is about split in half at this stage. Half design build and now second half being designed now. Really it came down to I was limited in the design build side by what my staff could build and the capabilities and time allowances for staff. So if the Masons were busy, I couldn’t do another big masonry project. If the carpentry team was really busy, we couldn’t do another big carpentry job. Didn’t want to steer clients. If the client came to me and said, I have these wants and wishes, that’s what the client deserves.
Not what I can build for them specifically. What do you want? So now we will network two or three or four different companies together. One of them will be the project or one of them will be the prime contractor. We’ll project manage it. But then they can get the best of the best of what they want, not just what one company has the capacity to deliver. And I was managing people and managing very large companies.
And finally, I didn’t have time to be very creative in the design side and present the designs. And that’s the pure joy side. I love the build side and getting, seeing them come together, but solving the puzzle of what it should be. That’s my training. That’s my true passion.
Ezra McCarthy
In your eyes, do you still enjoy literature? I don’t know if you’re using like a cat or some sort of project or are you doing pen and paper? Do you enjoy that aspect still or more the business? Okay.
Paul Brydges
Yep. I, uh, 95 % of the work that goes out the door to our studio is hand drawn. We use CAD for commercial work. We use CAD to do, you know, base drawings for measuring where accuracy and precision is important for that to get us started. But our clients don’t see CAD. Our clients see a drawing produced in-house. do the rough concept sketches and then I’ve got a talented team of junior designers who, you know, they’re doing design work with us as well. But then they’re, they’re putting graphics to it to bring it to life. So clients see it and they’re like, oh, a human being spent time doing this for me? This is art. My job is in a science center in the theater too.
Ezra McCarthy
That’s fascinating. Do you find most people you mentioned they like it? Do you get any pushback now? Obviously I’ve not experienced in the computer program or not on this side of like where they can take a house and then put stuff here. Do you find people push back and want that?
Paul Brydges
The odd contractor we work with was like, can you give me a 3D computer rendered version of this? you can pay somebody to do that, pay them $90 and get that done. There’s no, a little bit, but when clients ask us, they ask us what program we use when they see the drawings. And we tell them, know, it’s the left hand and the right hand. They’re blown away. And then we have a massive portfolio of completed work, construction built. We show them this drawing could look like this when it’s done. So then it’s real life. It’s not.
Lots of people are getting tired of the computer telling us what the world can be. This is more, no, this is what the world is still. And we’ve built quite a niche that way. We’re known for it. We get called dinosaurs at the same time, jokingly, but it works. And we’ve got 17 contractors that use us every day. So it works for them.
Ezra McCarthy
So your process for bringing on team members, you’re not pulling someone off the street then because to do that’s highly skilled labor. So what is your process like to bring someone on your team? Because obviously that’s our technical side too.
Paul Brydges
The technical side I can train. That’s the easy part, right? Because there’s formulas to that. It’s the aptitude and attitude, but somebody that they have to have a bit of an aptitude towards the art side, because they start in our graphic department, taking my scribble and turning it into presentable work. Understanding the technical side, because they come to site with me, because I always take our staff, they will come to site and help me do a site measure. Then they’ll create base drawings. Then they’ll work on graphics when I go through the design. So they’ve got to be somebody that knows how to listen, knows how to learn.
I’ve had, but I’ve had talented staff in the office that have been incredible artists with not a lot of technical background and the technical, they’re smart people. Can learn the technical side is critically important, but if they’re going to design, they have to be technically can be, I’m not an incredible artist. I have great vision, but I’m not, I’m not the one that puts pen to paper to bring that to life anymore, but they have to understand the technical side to be a good designer. So we could have texts in the office, but we can’t, a tech isn’t necessarily a designer. One’s not necessarily the other, but they are they’re a different breed of people.
Ezra McCarthy
So are you working with people all across the country to do that or are you only working with people locally that you can get a team member on site?
Paul Brydges
We have an open concept studio, so they work out of the studio every day. So anybody and everybody here, and right now we’re down to two people right now, we’re actually looking for a third to bring on. We’ve got lots going on but I like to keep it small. So there’s typically three of us, sometimes four with a summer student.
And every person in the studio could be working on any given job any given day. And then we beat around the ideas of, what do you think of this? That’s how they learn. That’s how young designers learn from seeing what other people do. And I learn more from them some days when we have a roundtable discussion. What do you think of this? What do you want to do here? What would be interesting? What did you learn yesterday? We try to keep it. If it’s not fun, we shouldn’t be in the office with us. We just try and have a lot of fun.
Ezra McCarthy
So your projects though, are they local projects that you’re designing for or are these all over?
Paul Brydges
Mostly all over Canada, East Coast, quite a bit now pushing a little bit more that way, but yeah, we go a fair distance. And normally we will go to the site for the initial site meeting, but if we don’t, then we have to rely on getting information back from our contractors. They’ll give us drone footage, or very particular about what information we get back for a site, whether we get a survey done so we can get grade shot aspect for wind and sun but I can walk them through what I need from a technical end. My preference is to go to a site to see it, feel it, understand it, but I can do it remotely.
Ezra McCarthy
Maybe if there’s a landscaper listening in and they’re saying, okay, I want to get into some of this higher end stuff. Maybe they say I’ve never used a designer. What would some of your tips be? Because maybe they’ve just went and someone says, hey, throw a retaining wall here and it’ll probably be here. And that makes you cringe, but I’m sure everyone listening in has had that happen. What would you say? How could they get involved to where I’m sure someone is listening in, they may not even hear some of these words, how you’re describing it. How would you say for them to break into some of this higher end landscaping project?
Paul Brydges
Every project should start with a design. It doesn’t need to be an absolute to scale masterpiece. But without a drawing, for the complexities of landscape construction now, without a drawing, there are gray areas that either the client’s not happy or the contractor is going to lose money. But where a designer will absolutely shine, and it can be any qualified designer, doesn’t need to have credentials, just a good, technically sound person, the drawing has to be functional.
Pretty to present is great, but it has to be functional. It deals with grading, deals with drainage, deals with winds, deals with the soil conditions you’re given, deals with compaction of base materials. So, if a designer’s come from, and no disrespect, a designer with a fine art background, but if they’ve never put a shovel in the ground and don’t understand construction, it probably isn’t a maintainable design. And that’s the biggest thing, making sure that the drawings are buildable.
and then they’re maintainable for durability because the landscape should be built for generations, not for a decade or two.
Ezra McCarthy
And you know, I remember seeing a picture of a landscape form I was in and they were asking what to do. They had put in this patio, but they hadn’t thought through where the water would go. And then it was like pooling in this spot. And at that point they had already put it in. I can’t remember what kind of, but it was like a paper patio. And obviously I don’t know what they ended up doing, but it was not good.
Paul Brydges
Grading and drainage is the absolute most important consideration on any project. If you don’t deal with the water properly, the project will fail. And that’s when we get called in. We get called in a lot of times after the fact. And it’s just like shameful. It’s like, who didn’t look at this? Who didn’t? Because any good contractor, that’s kind of one of their, that’s one of their first questions. That’s where unfortunately designers don’t tend to have that technical hands on in the field. They don’t get that experience in school anymore.
I’m just on another call for that exact reason with a college trying to say, do we need to rebuild the new technical program? Well, teach them grading and drainage. The basics, water flows downhill, it must flow downhill and we must contend with where it’s going to go, especially with the modern climate conditions we have.
Ezra McCarthy
So how would you say as a landscaper is trying to put this in, hopefully they’re quoting well, et cetera, but they’ve got a justifier somehow to say to the homeowner, this is going to provide value to justify. Of course, they need to put that in their price. So how can a landscaper convey that value to the customer when the customer says, hey, why do I need a designer? I’m putting in a retaining wall. I’m putting in this patio. What’s the point?
Paul Brydges
there’s some very easy ways to sort of justify it. If there’s a change order in the middle of a project and a contractor has a team stop work for a day, they’re on site, they should be getting paid for that day. If they have to stop work, that contractor is losing money. So lots of times a contractor looks at, you know what, a drawing is very often three to 7 % of construction value cost on the top end. And the more complex gets into that. So if a crew shut down for a day, that crew should be turning three to five to $7,000 a day in production.
That drawing is probably going to be paid for that day that they’re not working. If a step is missed that the contractor didn’t quote from their end, they’re out of pocket for the money like simply a natural stone step. It could be a two or $3,000 piece depending how large it is. So it sort of, gets rid of those gray areas, the contractor is pricing the actual job, not what he thinks is going to get done. And then from the homeowner end, we explained it often to them, it’s like having an insurance policy, but in Canada, as you are aware, and I’m based out of Ontario largely, we have a 13 % tax on everything we do.
So a design is less than the tax that you pay on a project. And it’s very much like an insurance policy. So if something goes wrong, the designer is responsible for the error. So I make mistakes in our projects too, when they go to our contractors. Inevitably, we’re human. I cover those mistakes to our contractors, so they’re not out of pocket if I’ve given them an error.
Ezra McCarthy
Can you tell me an example? What’s the biggest mistake you’ve ever made?
Paul Brydges
The biggest mistake we’ve ever made. We had one project and we missed making an error in the math and internally and it’s because it’s my studio, is on me. And so we missed an entire row of armor stone and retaining wall. So we missed a 24 inch high wall that was 100 feet long. So that was a $10,000 wholesale mistake. ⁓ So the contractor that I worked with, I’d worked with him for a lot of work, a lot of years. He just went and put the wall in because it needed to be there. He did not go back to the, he didn’t go back to the client.
Ezra McCarthy
What should that cost?
Paul Brydges
and say, hey, there’s a mistake. We need another $10,000 for this project. He called me and I said, that’s on me. Can we work together? And so his next several drawings were on the house to pay back. The client didn’t deserve to, we told the client I made a mistake. We told the client we would work together and make good on it. So for them, they got an interesting project. Yeah, the wall was a little bit higher than they expected. We apologized profusely, but we made good on it. And that’s why we work with so many contractors for so long when making a mistake, you need to own up to it.
And when the contractors make a mistake, we’ll come to the table and help them. They’ve made a mistake. Here’s a solution. How do we get there? You don’t point fingers at each other. You work together to still get the end result the client’s looking for. But we’re a small studio. So that $10,000 mistake, that was a very large mistake. And I have insurance. I could have put it through insurance. For that, I’d rather not put it through insurance. I just want to make it good.
Ezra McCarthy
you
maintain the quality, do purposely kind of keep how many clients you bring on low to maintain that quality? Cause it sounds like you kind of strive for more of the niche approach.
Paul Brydges
So we’re busy. Realistically, people ask all the time how many projects do they do a year? We do a couple hundred projects a year, but it’s more now. It’s not the number of projects at the scale because the scale is getting bigger all the time. So we’re doing less jobs because they’re bigger. But we do about $25 million worth of construction drawings a year for construction value.
Ezra McCarthy
With that being said, obviously you see a lot of values worth going through in design. Do you see any trends over the past? At this point, you’ve been in it a long time, what trends that maybe a landscaper could say, this is something that maybe I can learn how to do or something I can get better at with this trend in mind.
Paul Brydges
Food production at home since the pandemic has become a huge, huge trend and kind of back some of the back to the basics. So we do a lot of edible gardens and now they’re integrated right in and you put vegetables with perennials, then you don’t need pesticides because some of them are self-cleansing with each other. But just changing plant choices instead of doing a boxwood hedge, why not make it a blueberry hedge or make it a gooseberry hedge or a current hedge?
That’s a really big one. And people are really looking at that because they’re so disconnected from nature now and everybody’s starting to really understand that there’s a lot of value in your own backyard. There’s safety, there’s security, there’s some amount of calm. So we’re putting more and more emphasis on the backyard being an outdoor living space. So fire features are very, very common. then again, putting fire in edibles and then shade because we’re getting into such intense UV. Everybody needs shade, even areas before that never thought of it. Like the East Coast of Canada never used to think about shade and now they’re talking about shade and fire prevention.
Ezra McCarthy
I know all about fire prevention here. There’s so much fire here in BC. It’s nuts. Just the other day it was like three.
Paul Brydges
It starts there and then we’ve got it all the way into Northern Ontario and then we had it on the east coast in Canada a couple years ago. We almost lost a couple projects. They’re surrounded by the ocean but they have forest fires.
Ezra McCarthy
So as your business has grown, kind of how has your leadership style evolved even within your business as you went from starting young to now you’re a little bit older?
Paul Brydges
I had a lot of bosses when I was young and I tried to take a little bit from each and all of them as to things I loved they did and things that I swore I’d never do as an employer and sort of try to blend that philosophy. But then we’ve also changed with each new person that comes to the studio, they’re their own entity. So how I work with them, how I work with people, people don’t work for me, they work with me and I try and build a real team mentality.
But as I’ve got older and I’ve got more and more colleagues out there, done a lot of work with many national associations, volunteering time, it’s just learning how to communicate with people and to get the best out of them. What do they need? Some need support, some need a little bit of a push, others need freedom, others need structure. just learning to, learning to listen is probably the most valuable skill I have when it comes to both staff and clients. What do you need? And what do we need to succeed? But that’s taken a while to understand that talking is important, but listening is far more.
Ezra McCarthy
That’s really good. And I’m curious, at this point, you work with a lot of landscape companies. You probably see some that you think, hey, they’re going to make it. And some that you think, wow, this is probably the last project because they’re not doing so well. What would you see with your insight is the reason why some really flourish and some don’t.
Paul Brydges
The biggest reason is the ones that flourish know how to communicate. That’s the key. And it’s communicating with clients and it’s communicating the good and the bad. The bad being we’re two weeks behind schedule. We’re not going to be there the day we promised, but letting them know we’re not going to be there the day we promised. Not, it’s not because my truck broke down or it’s been rainy, but it’s just being open and honest with the client because we find more often than not with our network of contractors, they are very, very talented in all different levels.
They get a job. We’ve drawn a project out that’s a phasing plan where they’re getting clients can do things over two or three years. The famous last words from the contractor, from the client is, I’m just thinking while you’re here, between that and whether the schedule is gone, because the contractor’s not leaving the job till the project’s done. So they’re two weeks behind because they’re still with another client that’s added work because they love what they’re doing. Now they found more money and they’ve realized they’re now inspired to spend the money on that phase two, I really want to do that now because I love everything else.
So then, calling the next client says, hey, we’re still at client XYZ’s house. They’ve added some scope to the project. We are coming to you anticipating this is the day we’re coming. And then when we get there, if and when you add, we’re staying till we’re done at your house too. It’s that open and honest communication. Those are the ones that will succeed regardless of difficulties because they’re good communicators and they’re and that’s that’s a big part of management. It took me a long time to learn that too.
The ones that are disorganized and they don’t, they can’t tell the client when they’re coming. They can’t tell them how long they’re going to be there. They call us two days before they need a drawing and they take a month to get back to the client with a price. Those are the ones. Those are typically people that might be very talented contractors, but they are not business people.
Ezra McCarthy
You see that a lot. Unfortunately, it’s easy to get into this business, but it’s like anything, a hard business to run. So you’ve been involved with Landscape Ontario, the Landscape Association. Obviously you’ve been in a while, you see value there. What would you tell someone, maybe they’re interested in some sort of association in their state or province? Why would you recommend them doing that if you do? And how has it helped the people that you’ve been around?
Paul Brydges
I was president of Landscape Ontario. I’m now a member of Landscape Nova Scotia and I’m chair of the National Design Committee for the Canadian Nursery Landscape Association and several others. The value in it is the camaraderie between people because the bulk, I would say the vast majority of people that join the associations want to learn more and are willing to give. And a dear friend who is the executive director in Ontario Forever gave me an analogy. said, now if you’re willing to give some…
a table of strangers, your best secret. And there’s six of them and they give you their best secret back. You won six times over. You got a 600 % return on your investment. So going to those associations, whether it’s a social meeting or whether it’s a business meeting, but it’s a network of colleagues and your peers that you can go to and say, thinking about buying X piece of machinery. And if you have that, how is it? Is the value there? Does it have durability? How was the manufacturer? What came to warranty?
So it’s just a huge, huge network of people that are doing exactly what you’re doing. And it’s like, we’re not doing this alone. And if we work together, we can create excellence with a number of different perspectives on the same job that will give you a better outcome.
Ezra McCarthy
That’s so good. I like what you said about the six to one. And that’s so true. can think several things, whether that goes to a CRM or payment processor. I’ve literally looked at other people in industry and thankfully they had good choices, but I just used what they did and it saved me so much hassle. Cause some people get so caught up in the minutia and just the little tiny details that don’t matter. And then their business just doesn’t grow. Are there any books? I’m a big fan of books.
And are there any books in your business or maybe in your business life that you’d really, really help you? Then secondly, any podcast? I don’t know if you’re into podcasts, but are there any that you’d recommend the listeners check?
Paul Brydges
Yeah, landscape Ontario has started doing podcasts lately. So I do listen in on them. It’s great. I travel a lot. So it’s some way I can pick them up in the vehicle. So they’ve got some great ones lined up already. And I’m a book person too. I read every night before I go to sleep. read, I either read history or read the history of architecture and landscape architecture. But I use it kind of, we have a couple of, you a couple of what you’d consider like the, you know, the Bible of what we need. Time saver standards for landscape architects is just like the technical guide for I don’t remember how big a bocce court is off the top of my head or how big a half court is for basketball.
I just pull that book out and there’s my answers. Michael Durer’s Guide to Woody Trees and Plants. And there’s a compendium for that in perennial. That sits beside my desk. I’ve had, I don’t know how many copies of that I’ve worn out in 40 years. Those are great ones. There are a couple of other landscape design books that we use internally. Those two are really, really big ones from my perspective, but I have a library at the studio and my staff just signed the books out. Here’s a book I think you might like, you might be interested in. They just sign them out and they bring them back when they’re done. And then we pass them around the office.
Ezra McCarthy
What is a good history book you’ve recently read? You mentioned you liked that.
Paul Brydges
I read Legion Magazine every week. I know when they come in. I have a lot of family in the military history and we do a lot of veterans projects. donate all our veterans projects. We donate the design as a give back to all our members past and present. I worked through Highway of Heroes. We just did a project with them in conjunction with the ⁓ RCAF for their 100th anniversary. We designed a number of commemorative gardens across Canada for that.
Ezra McCarthy
So like the Legion or what?
Paul Brydges
That’s it. Mostly military history again because a lot of different family members serve and that’s a I hope my boys never have to but that’s my give back to maybe say a little bit of thanks for letting me be able to do exactly what I love doing every day.
Ezra McCarthy
We’re really blessed to live in a good country for sure. Well, Paul, this has been great. A lot of fun. If someone’s interested, maybe they say, hey, I need a landscape designer, need some help. How could someone, if they’re interested, reach out to you?
Paul Brydges
They can either reach out through our website, is www.brydgeslandscapearchitecture.com. And Brydges has a unique spelling of B-R-Y-D-G-E-S. So brydgeslandscapearchitecture.com. could certainly find us. That’s the easy one. We’ve got a contact us page. Anyone could call me directly on my cell either 519-827-6016. And I speak to people from all across Canada and the associations every day. So it is not unusual to get an unusual call from somebody in the Dakotas or somebody in Moncton, New Brunswick or wherever the case may be. We look for projects that are fun for people that are looking to do something a little different and love what they do. Those are the fun teams to build. When someone else says, I’m a pencil, they’re a shovel and together we can create really, really great things.
Ezra McCarthy
Well, Paul, thanks so much for joining us today. This has been great fun hearing about the landscape design portion and the designing. And if the listener, if you’ve enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and leave a rating and review until next time. We’ll catch on to the next one.
