Ezra McCarthy
hello and welcome back to the Lawn Care Success Blueprint. today we have another great episode coming to you. today’s guest is not just another lawn care business owner, but Kory Ballard built a great landscape business there in Des Moines, Iowa, scaling it and eventually selling it. but he didn’t just stop there. he went on to grow Ballard Products, a brand for go-to lawn landscape businesses for tools, gears and solutions designed for anyone that’s looking to grow their business. Kory, great to have you here today.
Kory Ballard
fantastic. I’m glad to be on. love talking lawn care, lawn care businesses, landscape businesses. and if you want to talk about some products, we can do that as well. and whatever you got planned, I’m ready. great.
Ezra McCarthy
great. so Kory, most everyone probably listening knows who you are, but for those who don’t, do you want to just give me a quick overview about what you’ve built and kind of where you come from?
Kory Ballard
give you the short version. a lot of stories start off like most. 14, I wanted to make some money and I got a push mower and started going door to door and asking people if I could cut their grass. I grew that by the time I graduated high school. I had a couple of mowing crews and still wasn’t sure it was gonna be my life plan or business. the community was growing. my mom had a small business and she knew a lot of people. my uncle owned a bar in town. we knew enough people that I was out there hustling and it grew fairly quick.
we built Perfect Cut into—originally it was just cutting grass—and then it expanded into full lines of service and eventually all commercial. and as you mentioned in the intro, I ended up selling that in October of 2021, but built it up to about a $25 million company with about 200 employees in three locations. we were full-service commercial site management, large landscape installs, a lot of commercial snow and ice management.
but it was a long, long process. we can get into that a little bit, I’m sure some of the questions are about that. but a long process of starting by yourself, to your first employee, to your first 10 employees, to eventually almost 200 staff members. did that for a long time and surrounded myself with fantastic people. I couldn’t have done any of it without an amazing team. maybe some luck, maybe some good hires, maybe a little bit of all of it. a lot of timing and things.
but also started Ballard Products in 1999, which dates me a little bit as well. just with one product that we made for ourselves. my dad actually made it. and I’m like, that’s nice. and that was our Easy Gate, which is still a good seller today. we put a patent on that. then we built a mower jack and actually the Super Jack is one of our best sellers today. just started building some products that we were using in our own business. I kept thinking, man, we use these every day. surely other guys can benefit from that.
my entrepreneur mind started thinking, well, how do we sell them? and this was really pre-internet though. this was when Lawn & Landscape had a magazine, and Pro had a magazine, and Turf had a magazine. we had to run old magazine ads and they were expensive and tough to get out. did that, trade shows. had the Ballard business now—which most people don’t get—this is our 26th year in business. I think a lot of people just thought it kind of came out of nowhere the last four or five years, but for many years it was a hobby business.
I had one sales guy, one warehouse guy. in 2017, I decided I’m either going to shut it down or I was going to grow it. slept on it for a while, talked to my wife, stepped away from the day-to-day at Perfect Cut. put all my efforts and energy into Ballard and we’ve built that up to a really nice business today. we’ve got a beautiful facility. I think we have 12 or 13 employees plus my wife and I. so a little different business model—really totally different business model—same industry, but totally different model.
and I focus on Ballard. I’m again, completely out of Perfect Cut. I stayed on for two and a half years after the sale. originally it was two years and then we were kind of in the middle of buying another company and then I helped that process work through and stayed on with our team. so I have nothing to do with Perfect Cut today, which is really weird, other than we own all the buildings that they occupy, which is kind of nice.
I hope that makes some sense, Ezra. that’s kind of a 35-year career in about four minutes.
Ezra McCarthy
no, that’s good. and what we like to do here is our goal is to give a blueprint to help people see, okay, how can we start here and then scale and grow their business? I’m going to ask you some things about Perfect Cut. and then I’d love to know some things about Ballard as well.
in Perfect Cut, as you were growing, what were some of the first systems that you put in place that allowed you to step away from kind of the day-to-day—probably chaos at the beginning? and then how long did you wait to kind of begin to put those processes into place to help you grow?
Kory Ballard
I mean, I put some things in place. I don’t know if they helped me necessarily step away in the very beginning because we were just kind of all hands on deck. and we really remained that way on and off throughout the course of our journey.
but I was doing all routes by paper. everything was done by paper. I got a software called Clip, which I believe Clip is still in business today. and all the mowing routing was in there. the billing was in there. and I mean, I thought it had changed my life. I think we were maybe running four or five mowing crews and a couple small maintenance crews. and I mean, I’m doing route sheets by hand, billing by hand. every morning I’m going in there and doing the route sheets and putting a start and stop time on them. and then every night I’m checking them off.
the first thing was software. and I don’t know if I waited too long. I think I needed to understand the business and make sure I knew what we were trying to accomplish. and that software certainly changed the business right out of the gate. it really just allowed me to focus more of my time. I just could focus on some other things, which was scaling the business. I wasn’t in the mornings. I could spend time out talking to the guys, looking at the equipment, helping load, helping unload, instead of sitting in there doing route sheets by hand.
Ezra McCarthy
and that’s interesting. and I’m curious, back then when you implemented that, what was that costing you? because I hear people today and they may even be doing a hundred, two hundred thousand. they’re not using a CRM, which stands for customer relationship manager. some people today are still doing what you did then. and I presume that was, I don’t know how many years ago—probably 20 plus years ago, I’m guessing.
Kory Ballard
so there you go—30 years ago. it really wasn’t that bad. I mean, compared to what we use today, obviously not that great, but it really printed out nice route sheets, had the customer name, the full address, start and stop time, any customer job note. very simple. at the end of the day, you would go, was the job complete? yes or no. you could put the time in—started at 8:21, finished at 8:53. how many men? you could put the crew, the guys on the crew. so it really was…
Ezra McCarthy
so how clunky was that software?
pretty good.
Kory Ballard
30 years ago, which seems bizarre. because I’ve looked at some software today that isn’t that much better. it certainly has some different modules and features that make it, you know, dashboards and things that are certainly nicer. but it worked really, really well. and I don’t remember what the cost was.
I think to where you were alluding is—knowing what I knew after I put it in place for a month—I would have paid triple. I said the same thing that a lot of guys say, why did I wait so long? what was I doing? and I think that happens a lot of times when you hire the right person or put the right software in place or sometimes buy the right piece of equipment even. and you go, what were we doing? that was one of those moments where I was like, wow, what a complete game changer that was.
Ezra McCarthy
what would you tell someone today who’s trying to nickel and dime and not spend money on something—whatever you’re using, there’s several good ones. LMN, there’s Jobber, there’s lots of good ones.
Kory Ballard
I mean, I’m not real tech savvy and I think it’s scary. and I think a lot of people say, it’s working pretty good. I challenge them. when someone says it’s working pretty good, I say, is it? you just told me that your wife doesn’t like you, you’re doing billing at nine o’clock, ten o’clock at night, you’re working 80 hours a week. is it working pretty good? cause it doesn’t feel like it is. and they’re like, well, I don’t know. and I’m like, no, I’d like you to explain it to me.
so I’d tell them again—use what’s out there and look at what good companies are doing. this is something that I don’t think most people get. what’s your time worth? I think that there’s just a… we’re just—as men sometimes—we’re stubborn. and certainly a lot of women are running great companies in our industry as well, but we’re just stubborn and we don’t like change. it’s hard to take that leap to do something that maybe you feel uncomfortable doing.
and if you’re uncomfortable, just find somebody. maybe there’s someone on your team, maybe there’s a part-time person that can help you. I think that’ll lead maybe into some of the stuff when I hired my first admin person, which totally changed my life. and there’s always a lot of fear with…
Ezra McCarthy
that’s so good. curious, you mentioned earlier key hires. looking back, what were the first—or what were some of the three key hires—that you looked at? looking back, you said, hey, these just really moved the needle at Perfect Cut.
Kory Ballard
yeah, the first admin person—her name was Chris Harding. she stayed with me for 25 years. I remember, I think I started her at like nine bucks an hour, maybe ten. she was actually my second choice because the other person wanted twelve and I couldn’t afford it. and she was fantastic. she’s like family today. she ultimately ended up retiring with us. and by the time she left, she was probably at six figures or close.
but I mean, she started with just nothing. we had maybe six or seven employees. we had her in this little tiny office. so an admin person—but I remember the fear, Ezra, thinking, what will she do all day? and I hear this a lot today from contractors. like, I know, but I do it every evening, there’s not 40 hours a week. but there really was.
once we really got her in billing, then accounts payable, accounts receivable, on a proper payroll system, and taxes. are our stuff insured? should we get bids on our insurance to see if we have the proper insurance and are we paying the right amount? and we started really doing all the things that you’re supposed to do in a business. quickly, she was working 50, 60 hours a week. I realized how much value she brought. so admin was crucial for me.
the first salesperson—same fear. like, an eight-hour day, how much sales can they do? will they be able to pay for themselves? every time I put somebody in place in sales, they absolutely did great. I mean, we certainly had some people that didn’t fit, but that was one.
and I think even a mechanic. I remember we had a lot of equipment. I was buying used trucks, I was buying used equipment. I was trying to be as lean as I could—even back then. I don’t know if I was lean on purpose or just didn’t have any money. it’s lean. and getting a mechanic—our equipment was down all the time. we had to do preventative maintenance. we had a night mechanic every evening from 11 to 7, working on our equipment. and when our guys showed up in the morning, the equipment was loaded, ready to go, oils were changed.
we found that a lot of our stuff was breaking just because we weren’t taking good care of it. we weren’t changing the oil timely. we were just kind of keeping things running. I think those three hires for me—admin, sales, and mechanic—were a pretty important piece back then.
Ezra McCarthy
I want to zoom in on something. you mentioned that lady—I forget the name you mentioned—but one thing that caught my attention is you said she worked for you for 25 years. now that is very uncommon in our industry. I hear so much about “can’t find anyone,” “no one wants to work.” now I know this was an office position, but how did you keep this lady in your office and wanting to work for you for 25 years?
Kory Ballard
I think that when somebody starts like that, I’ve had a lot of luck. again, I don’t know if luck’s the right word. I’ve had longevity with a ton of our staff. and Perfect Cut has guys today that are 25 years in plus—numerous guys and gals.
Ezra McCarthy
who else has been there that long?
Kory Ballard
I mean, I have guys in the field that have been there 25 years plus. one guy named Bill Day—he’s our longest employee. been there since 1994. he’s been there 31 years.
I think the difference is you treat people with respect. you give them the ability to do their job and do it well. we could do a whole podcast about compensation. yes, you want to pay them well, but most people—you know, when you look at a list of why they work somewhere—compensation is usually sixth, seventh, maybe eighth on the list.
they want to feel valued, respected. they don’t want to be micromanaged. we became really good friends. I mean, she knew my family, I knew her family. and Perfect Cut was really created like that in the beginning. I was in guys’ rooms, I knew their kids’ names. we had a lot of company parties. we just really built something very special. and everyone knew everybody and there was just a sense of family and value.
unfortunately, as you grow, though, that changes. I just did a podcast last week with Brian Fullerton kind of on this—where it’s like, you’ve changed. life changes, business changes. and we were no longer having beers after work with employees. that just… there was no longer alcohol in the… well, we liked when we used to drink here. well, we don’t do that anymore.
and things just start to change as your company changes and there’s more accountability. but yeah, we had a really, really strong team and still have a great culture today at Perfect Cut, but it certainly is different today. I mean, you can have a great culture and not drink beer at work as well.
Ezra McCarthy
so obviously you kept that culture going through, because even you mentioned—I think when you stepped away or maybe now—there’s over 200 team members, but those people are still there. how you kept that culture even as you grew—listened to that episode you did with Brian—it was really good. I recommend anyone go and listen to that.
say someone’s stuck around that $300 to $500k per year range. what is one thing that you would say and tell them if they’re just afraid to change? maybe they think, hey, we’ve always done it this way. but how would you tell them—if they’re looking to grow—some moves to make there?
Kory Ballard
yeah, that’s a tough one. I did read that question and thought, that’s a tough one because I need a little bit more data, right? I want to know what market they’re in, what kind of business they’re in, and what is really holding them back. usually it’s hiring the right people, and it’s fear of growth, because that next step sometimes requires a bigger building.
as your business scales, there are certain plateaus and points where you can get really good. I remember at Perfect Cut, we were crazy profitable at 3 million, but at 5 million, we weren’t. and then at 7 million, we were really, really good again. and then at 10 million, we weren’t. it’s the same as growing your company from $250k to $500k to $750k.
I think that 300 to 500 range is tough because you’re just big enough where you need admin, but maybe not full time. and you need a sales guy, but you’re not quite sure you can pay that guy what he needs. and you really need a project manager, but you’re kind of the project manager as the owner. so you’re in that weird spot.
I feel like you almost need to get to a million to really be able to utilize and put together a really good team. and now the question is, how do you get there?
that kind of comes back to—I’m a little old school—I kind of write down: where am I? where do I want to be? what obstacles are in my way? and what would I need to get there? is it capital? is it marketing? is it equipment needs? is it staffing needs?
and then I look at who I currently have on my staff. are any of those people capable of some upward mobility? like, do we have somebody that’s been here three years and maybe he’s ready to be a project manager? or maybe we’ve got this gal and maybe she’s ready to move up.
so I’m a little old school. I write things down, I kind of like to lay out my plans. but I also like to go, I think the answer to your question is: what’s holding me back? is it fear? is it capital? is it my market size? and then try to identify how I’m going to break through.
and maybe that means talking to somebody who has made that hurdle—whether you pay them, whether you take them to lunch, coffee, get on the phone with them—and saying, hey man, I remember when I was at 500, here’s what I did to get to a million.
I don’t know if that answers your question, but I tried to.
Ezra McCarthy
no, it’s good. and sometimes I think we can get all these excuses in our mind. we just recorded a podcast with Sam Gimbal a couple weeks ago—and I recommend listening to anything he does. he’s really interesting. but Flint, Michigan is not known for its economy, right? the only thing it’s known for is, normally, bad things. now, he might disagree with me.
Kory Ballard
yeah, water and getting shot. Sam is amazing and he’s thriving in a market that shouldn’t be, right? I like that. there’s a bunch of excuses—and I don’t want to cuss on your podcast because I think it’s better than that—but “you don’t know my market,” “nobody around here gets those prices,” “you can’t grow here.” I’ll come to your market. we’re going to go to work.
don’t tell me you can’t grow there. don’t tell me you can’t grow a company in Flint, Michigan. that’s not true. don’t tell me you can’t grow a company in Des Moines, Iowa. that’s not true.
Ezra McCarthy
and it’s so funny—I was working with a guy and he actually is maybe like 20 minutes from Brian Fullerton. I don’t think he knows him, but he was telling me, “my market here—just so much competition, it’s terrible.” and I’m thinking, okay, I know someone that’s like right next to you, you literally overlap. and obviously, Brian’s putting in the work, but he’s growing. I’m like, okay, I think… I’m not sure about this.
Kory Ballard
yeah, great companies are growing. great companies can find great people. great companies are growing. now, the only truth is—if you live in a town of 30,000 people and you’re in the middle of nowhere—there is a limit to where your business can go. and that’s unfortunate for guys.
we’ve had some guys on our podcast and they can’t do much more than $500,000. they’re like, man, we’re dominating in a town of 35,000.
Ezra McCarthy
but I just encourage you—if you’re there, I mean, we work with some people up in Ontario, Canada, in the middle of nowhere. but if you’re there, you better be number one on Google. you better be number one on map pack. anytime someone thinks landscaping or lawn care, you better be there.
yeah, maybe you can’t be a Perfect Cut, but you can build a great business.
speaking of growth—Kory, did you ever intentionally slow down Perfect Cut’s growth? maybe to work on some of the business internally or to protect the culture?
Kory Ballard
absolutely. at $10 million, we were probably as bad as we ever were. we weren’t very profitable. some of it was in our control—some of it wasn’t. accounts receivable was out of control. we weren’t collecting our money. we weren’t billing timely, which means you don’t collect on time. we weren’t following up on past dues. we had equipment insured that we didn’t even own anymore. we’d sell two trucks and a skid loader, buy a different one, and still be paying insurance on the old stuff. we had cell phones we were paying for that belonged to people who had already left.
we were just a very sloppy company at $10 million. and we had been so profitable that you could be sloppy and still make money. we were making good margin. but the economy really changed right then. we were doing quite a bit of work for GCs and large commercial builders—they were going belly-up and not paying us.
it really forced us to take a look at who we were. who’s our ideal customer? what are our processes? there were a couple times we intentionally halted growth. and some of it was just forced by what was happening in the economy and our market.
we had to stop and look again—what customers make sense? that’s when we really started looking at commercial versus residential. what’s our drive-time area? what’s our circle of business? why are we doing this job 70 minutes from our home base? well, it’s a big project. okay, but we’re not making any money on it.
we had to get much better. we had to clean up our systems, especially backend office work. we’d always been good at sales, always been good at getting the work done. but we were never good at the backend.
we looked great on the outside—beautiful trucks, always clean, people in uniform. from the outside, we looked like a great, great company. on the inside? sloppy. very, very sloppy.
it took a couple years to clean up. we put systems in place. we hired some people. we hired a COO—a gal who was just super smart. we hired a CFO—another gal who came from the Nashville airport. they brought in real systems and said, we’ve got to clean some things up.
everything from how we hire, to onboarding, to even how we fire. what does it look like from an exit interview standpoint? we really dug in: why are people leaving? how long are they staying? what does our training look like? why are people getting hurt? why are we losing customers?
we’d always had a pretty high retention rate—but yeah, there have been numerous moments where we had to hit the brakes.
that $10 million mark, around 2008, 2009, 2010, was really when we started tapping the brakes and said—we’ve got to get some things in place or we’re not gonna make it. culture wasn’t as good as it had been. we were letting things go that we never let go before.
maybe I was a little burnt out. my business partner—Matt Boman—I don’t know if he had actual ownership at the time, but we were both a little distracted. we had bought some other companies, so we were working on them.
and yeah, that was an interesting moment. we got humbled, and I’m glad it happened. I remember in 2010, we actually talked to a bankruptcy lawyer. we had no cash. we had everybody else’s money. and we just wanted to know what our options were.
I remember we left there and said, well, we’re not doing that—but we’ve got to clean this up. and we’ve got to clean it up quick. it took a couple years, and we completely flipped the switch.
Ezra McCarthy
hopefully that gives hope to someone, because really—that was 15 years ago. and I didn’t ride that. now, one other story—it’s been a while since I heard you tell it, but if I’m remembering correctly, wasn’t there a payment—maybe this was after you got your CFO—you were paying off equipment or something, and somehow it got wired to the wrong place? and they scammed you out of like… wasn’t it like a hundred thousand or a couple hundred?
Kory Ballard
well, it was about $240,000, I think, all in. that was in October of ’21. so when we were going to sell—as we were getting ready to sell the company—we were debt free. and I say that in a way that, yes, we had some debt on equipment, but we had more cash on hand than we had debt.
as we were getting ready to sell the company, we were calling around saying, okay, we owe this—Vermeer, I think—on maybe some sort of puller. and then we owe this on a tree truck, a boom truck. so we were paying off stuff.
our emails were intercepted. these guys are good. several hundred thousand—yeah, I think it was $240,000 all in—three different checks, or wires rather, that we sent. yeah, three different wires were sent and were redirected overseas somewhere.
luckily, a few years back, we had a great insurance agent—I still use him here at Ballard—who Perfect Cut had used. he helped us put together a cyber fraud protection program. and it wasn’t much, maybe $2,500 a year, $3,000 a year. I remember him talking to me about it and I was like, I don’t think we need that. and he talked me into it.
it covered everything. so we got all of our money back. but it was a pretty scary moment. we were selling, but still—it was like, the money’s just gone. and we did a police report, and even the fraud officers who came out just said, “there’s nothing we can do. the money’s gone.”
Ezra McCarthy
so when you said you got the money back—you got it from the insurance company, not the fraudster?
Kory Ballard
our insurance covered the loss at least. luckily we had that in place, and it wasn’t very much money, but I’m glad we did. and there was more to it. so anybody listening—there was a little more to it. someone could break into your system and wipe your bank account out. it was a fraud security policy, some sort of program we put in place. and I’d only had it maybe a year or two before that. for once, insurance actually worked—and it worked the way it should.
Ezra McCarthy
you tell someone—I don’t know that most people are dealing in that kind of numbers—but what would you tell someone else listening about insurance, maybe something you learned from that?
Kory Ballard
I’ve learned a lot of things from insurance outside of that mess. just having a really good insurance agent that understands your business. same with your bank.
our bankers used to come out to Perfect Cut and walk the site. they would come out in the morning and watch our process a little bit. they understood our business. they understood the ebbs and flows of our cash. they understood the needs.
and even with our insurance—they walked the facility and looked at everything we had, what we do. we were very transparent on everything. we didn’t try to hide things. like, “hey, we do tree service, but we don’t really want to tell them we use boom trucks.” a good agent will make sure they protect you—and that’s their job.
a good banker will understand your business—whether you need a credit line for certain times of the year, or you need additional cash.
so I just think it’s very important to surround yourself with really, really good partners. and that includes your insurance company and your bank.
a lot of your insurance companies now have a safety director. we were with Nationwide for years and they had a safety director who would come in, do safety talks, walk our facility, and look for anything that could be dangerous—like overhead storage.
a lot of those companies have resources that will really, really help you—for free. obviously, you’re paying them—but they help protect your company.
Ezra McCarthy
so what is your philosophy on insurance and banks? did you try to find large businesses, or—especially for banks—would you go more local?
Kory Ballard
we stayed local until we were bought out. I mean, a good-sized local—maybe regional I should call them—not a national, not like a Wells Fargo. we felt like we met directly with the vice president or president of the bank. and so I felt like there were always advantages to that.
certainly, we looked at larger banks because they have some pretty unique offerings and some synergies that make sense with a large national. but we always felt like knowing your banker had real advantages.
same with insurance. I mean, I feel like you don’t want the insurance guy to be your best buddy, but you do want it to be somebody that understands your business.
we always put our insurance out for bid every three years. and that wasn’t necessarily to make a change, but just to make sure we were paying what we should be paying. I think you’re obligated—or you should feel obligated—to make sure you’re doing your best to keep your costs in line and pay attention to what those things run.
even vehicles—we had certain dealerships we bought all our vehicles from. same with mowers. but we would still always price shop them. if we were buying 25 mowers, we didn’t just go to our regular dealer and say, “order 25 John Deeres.” we’d price them at two different dealerships. then we’d go back to our regular dealer and say, “hey, listen, we’ve got somebody else that can sell for $300 less. you can either match them or we’re going to go over there.”
you have to keep your people honest. and I think that’s your duty as a business owner—because we get comfortable. we just go to the local dealer, you buy your Chevy or Ford or Dodge, you just call them up and order one. and I think guys get a little too comfortable.
we did that for many years—we didn’t price shop anything. and when we got better at it, good companies are going to hold you to your numbers.
Ezra McCarthy
so good. as Perfect Cut scaled, what are some processes that—when you grew—broke first? and how did you put solutions in place to kind of fix that?
Kory Ballard
there’s so many things over the years, right? as we grew… I think I really want to focus on people here, because I’ve already talked a bit about some of the other stuff. but we didn’t have a good system to hire people.
you’d walk in, you could walk, you could talk—we’d throw you a t-shirt and you’d start Monday. we really built a much more robust onboarding process. how do we interview? who are we looking for? what questions do we ask? what experience do we give them when we hire?
we made some really nice videos where I talk about the history of the company, our core values. every new hire—after the interview process and they were hired—they’d come in, get their uniforms, get a tour of the facility, meet people. we’d show them where to clock in and out, restrooms, break area, where uniforms go, where to park.
then they’d watch a safety video and a video about the history of our company. and we really wanted them to leave that first day—before they had worked a shift—feeling like, “okay, this place is different.”
we had a broken system. we made it much better. even when people left, we wanted them to say, “I don’t work there anymore, but man, they’re a great company. they treated me with respect.”
we also did a one-week check-in. so after your first week, you’d meet with your direct supervisor. “how’s your first week go? how were you treated? do you feel safe? do you feel like you’ve been trained properly?” just—how did it go?
we found we were losing most people in the first 30 days. so we added a 30-day check-in, a 60-day, and a 90-day check-in.
we really worked to understand why people were leaving. and when we started asking questions—we found out a lot. then we did exit interviews. even if someone left abruptly, we’d call them and offer a $50 gift card if they’d do a phone exit interview.
and then—here’s the challenge—you’ve got to do something with the answers. we’d hear, “I wasn’t treated very good,” or “Joe didn’t treat me well,” or “Mike didn’t.” or “there are people smoking pot in your trucks.” and we’re like, whoa.
not all of it’s true, but you’ve got to dig in. investigate. I think to answer your question, it was the people problem. we really wanted to change the culture at Perfect Cut. and it starts with how you hire, who you hire, your expectations, clear goals and duties.
what’s their role? we have an org chart on the wall. they know exactly who they report to. we’ve got TVs now—this is a little fancier today—that show job site photos, safety stats, things going on. we have a safety board. a lot of things to help people feel like they’re working somewhere that’s special.
we know we’re not the end game for everybody. if you’re a landscape laborer, you might not stay forever. but we also want to show that if you want upward mobility—if you want a career in this industry—we have a path for you. and here’s what it looks like.
in the video, we even tell stories of guys who started at $12 or $14 an hour and are now branch managers or division managers.
and I think one of the things we did better than other companies—we did great reviews. we did a great job advancing people. we always tried to promote and hire from within. we just created something that was different.
so that’s probably the thing that was broken that I’d say we did a really good job of fixing.
a lot of stuff behind the scenes is always changing—software, making sure our pricing is right. you’re always working on that. but I think people was our biggest fix. and it’s the thing I’m most proud of today—because it’s still a great culture and a great place to work.
Ezra McCarthy
what’s your philosophy on hiring? do you recommend hiring for skill or attitude? and secondly, did you find job boards were the best place to find people—like Indeed, Monster, some of these—or were referrals the best source of great team members?
Kory
yeah, good question. we always hired attitude over experience. we were looking for people with quality moral values, work ethic, desire to learn and listen, and be a team member.
is it easier to hire a guy with three years of experience? absolutely. you can put him in a truck Monday and maybe he’s a better mower—if we’re just talking mowing. but there’s usually a reason he’s worked for four companies in three years. we found that when we hired from other companies, or guys with experience, they brought bad habits.
“this is how we do it.” and I’m like, no, that’s how you did it over at Joe’s Lawn Care. Joe’s out of business. here’s how we do it.
it does take longer to train that guy. we had dedicated people to train, and they weren’t our best foremen. they were guys who were really good communicators. we gave them a role specifically to train people.
we also asked better interview questions. like, “what do you do in your off time?” “what’s the last book you read?” “where do you want to be in three to five years?” we really started changing the type of people we hired.
and it was interesting—but we also hired fewer people. that’s a challenge too. it was a slower hiring process, even for field labor. it slowed things down. I used to do all the interviews. if you came in and you were halfway decent, I’d say, “dude, I’ll see you Monday.” it was quick.
when I left Perfect Cut, our number one source of hiring was still referrals. we had a referral program—$500 sign-on bonus and a $500 referral bonus. so if you referred your cousin and he came on board, there were stipulations: he had to stay a certain amount of time, had to have no write-ups, conduct had to be solid. but that was our number one source.
and people that work outdoors—they hang out with others who work outdoors. they do the same after-work activities. so that was always our top pipeline.
now, for higher-level jobs—admin, management, mid-level—we used Indeed and other platforms. we also did job fairs, especially with small community colleges. we had signs out front of the building—we had a high-traffic location. and on the back of every truck and trailer it said: “now hiring great people” with the phone number—or now it links to the website.
and the one thing I say all the time—we hired year-round. we weren’t only hiring when three guys quit. we were always interviewing.
if a guy or gal came in and they were top tier and fit all our criteria, we hired them—even if we didn’t have a spot. we always found a spot for great people. whether that meant letting someone go who was on their second or third write-up, or just wasn’t a quality fit. we’d say, “hey Nancy, unfortunately, we don’t have any hours for you anymore,” because we had Sue over here—and she’s fantastic.
we were always hiring. it’s too late otherwise. I just saw a post today—“side job tomorrow, need three guys.” you just found out you had a side job and now need three guys? who’s sitting around waiting, wondering what they’re doing tomorrow?
let’s say you get two or three to respond—there’s no way they’re good. I’ve never understood this last-minute hiring thing. I see it every time it snows—“looking for guys to shovel.” that’s your game plan? that’s a terrible game plan.
I’ll just reiterate: if you look for the right people—it takes longer. Mike has no experience, but he’s a great human being with all the core values. those are the guys that stay longer. it takes more time to get them up to speed, but those are the people you keep.
Ezra McCarthy
that’s good. now this might tie a little into your leadership style. so looking back to when you first started—how has your leadership style changed from those days when you were still in the field to now, growing Perfect Cut and now even Ballard?
Kory Ballard
a lot. I’ve grown up a little bit. I think you learn how to communicate with different people on their level, right? there are certain people you can say, “what’s going on? why is your head not in the game?” and there are others you have to take a softer approach—“is there anything I can do for you? it looks like you’re down. how can I help you today?”
you learn how to motivate people, how to communicate with people. I think “firm but fair” has been my philosophy. very, very fair—but I have high expectations. and I’m also very clear about them. I don’t think there’s a lot of gray areas.
I hear other people say stuff like, “well, if nothing’s going on, could you maybe work Saturday?” and then no one shows up Saturday. I don’t know what “maybe work Saturday” means.
I’d say, “hey Mike and Joe, I’m going to meet you guys here Saturday. we’re a little behind schedule. we’re going to bust our butt still, and I’m going to help you. I think we can be done at one o’clock. I’ll see you at eight o’clock Saturday.”
but I’m also not doing that Friday afternoon. I’m talking to them on Tuesday or Wednesday. “hey guys, we’ve had a lot of rain or we’re behind schedule. I just want everybody on this team to know—be prepared to maybe put some time in on Saturday.”
you start to learn how to communicate, but you’ve got to be clear. and you have to do what you say you’re going to do.
one of my pet peeves—don’t tell people “we’ll talk about that” or “I’ll give you a raise” or “I’ll do a review” and then never do it. if I say I’m going to do something, I do it. and that doesn’t mean I’m going to give you the answer you want. but if you come to me with an issue, and I say, “I’ll look into that, Mike, and get back to you Friday morning”—we’re having a conversation Friday morning.
it might not be the answer you want, but if I say I’ll talk to you Friday—we’re talking. and I’m going to be honest, open, and fair about whatever’s going on.
I think a lot of owners avoid tough conversations. you’ve got to get good at having difficult conversations. it’s not fun. I just had one here Friday with a team member—it’s not fun. and I start off by saying, “this is not going to be a fun conversation, but I feel I owe it to you to be open, honest, and transparent. otherwise, we can’t grow together.”
it just doesn’t work otherwise. I start that way, then I have the rough part of the conversation, and I always try to end on a positive note: “we want you here, we appreciate you, we value you, and I really, really hope we can make this work.”
I’ve learned how to navigate meetings in a way that works on all levels—from the guy in the warehouse to the highest-level person at my company—learning how to communicate with them.
I’m not perfect at it. I do what I say I’m going to do, and I’m honest with them. sometimes I’m brutally honest. and I think sometimes you have to be. you have to deliver bad news.
Ezra McCarthy
was there a moment, looking back, where you realized—hey, I’m not in the landscaping business anymore, I’m really in the people and maybe even the systems business?
Kory
yeah. I used to say—at one point, we were really leveraged—and people would be like, “you own that company? must be nice to work for yourself.” and I’d say, “well, I actually work for the bank.”
I really mean that. we were leveraged, borrowing money, growing out of control. so I was glad when I didn’t have to work for the bank anymore.
and that’s what gets tough. you stop being a landscaper or a lawn care guy, and you ultimately become a people manager. and it becomes less fun at times. I’ve been through periods in my growth and career where I spent all day in meetings, looking at spreadsheets and dashboards.
and I remember thinking—I’m not… first off, I’m not very good at this. you don’t want me in here. I’m better out there.
so I think it’s important, as you scale your company, to understand your strengths and weaknesses. I know what I’m really good at—and I stay in that area.
the things I’m a 2 or a 3 at—on a scale of 1 to 10—I don’t spend a lot of time on those. I don’t try to become a 5. I just stay in the areas where I’m a 10. I’m a 10 at a couple things, and I focus on those. that’s where I spend my time.
I think a lot of owners get sucked into doing the things they don’t want to do—and it makes it not fun. Perfect Cut got that way for a while. we just weren’t doing the things that were fun anymore.
and look—not everything’s always going to be fun. even today, I do things that aren’t that fun here at Ballard. but I try to surround myself with other people who can do those things, who enjoy those things—and who are better at them than I am.
Ezra McCarthy
speaking of hard conversations—you mentioned that one you just had with a team member. have you ever had to fire a great landscaper or lawn care technician just because they weren’t a great cultural fit? and what did that teach you about protecting your business?
Kory Ballard
I’ve had to let people go that I was in their weddings. I knew their kids. family. friends. we hunted together. drank beer together. I’ve had to let a lot of people go—and you have to do that to protect the integrity of the whole.
one of my rules was: nobody should ever be terminated and not see it coming.
which means—you should have given them a fair shot, especially at a higher level. you should have had several conversations with them—about their performance or whatever was distracting them from being a great team member or a culture fit.
yeah, we’ve had to let a lot of people go who were really good in some ways—but maybe they were a cancer to the culture. or they just no longer fit.
and as you grow, you also find that people who were really good at one point—you sometimes outgrow them. and that doesn’t mean it’s bad.
I remember one guy—he actually mows my lawn today, and I don’t know if he’ll listen to this—but he eventually went out on his own.
he said, “I liked the old Perfect Cut.”
I’m like, “you mean the old one when you made nine bucks an hour? because now you’re making $65K.”
he’s like, “well no, but I just liked the old one.”
things change.
as you grow, everything changes. there’s more accountability. when we implemented the EOS program—Entrepreneurial Operating System—we started having better meetings, more accountability. and we lost a couple high-level people. they didn’t like the accountability.
we knew that could happen. one of the EOS implementers even said it—“you might lose some people on your leadership team.” because now you’ve got to walk into a meeting Tuesday, say you didn’t do X, Y, or Z, and the rest of the team is just staring at you. and some people go, “I don’t like this anymore.”
but yeah, to answer your question—I’ve had to make some really, really tough terminations. and I can tell you, there’s not one of them that I regret in 35 years.
every single one was necessary. and in most cases, I look back and say, “why did I wait so long?”
every time we filled that role, we made it work. and in almost every case, we got someone better. but it’s scary.
I’ve let people stay on a year longer than they should’ve.
I remember one guy—Matt and I probably had 20 conversations about needing to let him go. and when we finally did, we were like, “what were we waiting on?”
he was a really high-level guy. produced at a high level. but his integrity wasn’t there. and we had to make the tough call.
if you’re going to protect the rest of the team, you’ve got to make good decisions. because if you don’t—your other teammates will notice.
even if you’re small—if you let Joe show up late every day, and you’ve got Mike and Bill showing up on time, busting their butt—well, they’re going to start showing up late. they’re going to stop caring. they’ll give you 80% because they know you don’t care.
and then the entire morale of the team lowers. you just can’t do it.
it’s tough though—man, those are tough conversations when you’ve got to look someone in the eye and let them go.
I’ve had people say, “you’re not firing me. there’s no way.”
and I’m like, “no—this is it. we’ve done this. I’ve got a ride out front for you. I’m going to go to my office. your stuff’s being packed up right now. there’s a whole process here.”
Kory Ballard
I did. we put it in place because we weren’t having what I considered effective meetings. we were too big. we’d have a meeting—I’d run it—and I felt like I was just lecturing. I was just talking. there’d be eight to ten people in the room—just our high-level managers—and it didn’t feel like anything was happening.
we had a COO in place, and she said, “hey, I’d really like us all to read this book (Traction) and see if we think it makes sense for our company.” we did. and we eventually hired a guy named Mark—he was fantastic.
our meetings became so much cleaner, so much better. you walked out and everybody knew what was happening. we were effective. we started on time, ended on time. we rated the meeting. we tackled issues. we actually solved problems.
we had quarterly meetings. we stayed on top of things. it absolutely changed our company.
I recommend it for any company of any size. if you’ve got over probably 10 to 15 people, you can do it. you can even do it on a smaller scale. and then we trickled it down—we called them Level 10 meetings. and we trickled that format all the way down to our small group meetings.
everything became leaner. absolutely one of the best things we ever did for the company. you set your short- and long-term goals. you set your “rocks.” everybody knows what they are.
but—to my point—we lost some people when we put it in place. because the accountability changes. suddenly, everybody’s like, “yeah, I’ll get to that next week.” and then they don’t. and then they’re called out for it. and all of a sudden, that’s not fun anymore. “I didn’t get that done.” “Why not?” now the team knows.
it exposed who was really running well—and who wasn’t.
Ezra McCarthy
did you know the team members that ended up quitting—did you have a feeling those would be the ones when accountability came into action?
Kory Ballard
yeah, I had a feeling a few of them weren’t going to like it. I mean, you can kind of see people get complacent. they’ve been with you 12, 15 years—they get comfortable. they start thinking they can’t be replaced. they think they’re above the rules.
and sometimes, it’s just better that—like Sam Gimbel says—they get promoted onto a new company.
Ezra McCarthy
when you started Ballard—and this obviously is more in the product side of the green industry rather than service—was that always part of the plan? I think you said 1999 was when you started. did it grow out of frustrations in the product space, or why branch out from Perfect Cut?
Kory Ballard
I had it for a long time, and we were selling a lot of other people’s products. we still do—probably 30% of our sales today are products we didn’t make, like Green Touch racks and other stuff we used at Perfect Cut.
I felt like nobody was really selling those kinds of tools, especially the creative stuff we had invented.
in 2017, I had let my one sales guy go around 2015. I was taking the sales myself, but we were doing zero advertising—just a couple hundred grand a year. very small. no promotion, no paid ads, no Instagram, no Facebook, no Equip Expo, nothing.
and at Perfect Cut, I had so many good people in place, I didn’t feel like I was making a difference. I’d go in, walk around, “anybody need help?”—nope. nobody needed me. I’d go back to my office, scroll Facebook. I just didn’t feel like I was making an impact anymore.
and I had Ballard, and it was tiny—but I thought, I can do something special here. I know the industry. I know the problems. I need a challenge.
I talked to my wife. I took Matt to coffee and said, “I want to step down as president. I want to promote you.” and he said, “let’s go.” I stayed on for a couple weeks to tie up loose ends and then stepped away.
at that point, Ballard was literally just me. my wife was working at Perfect Cut in contract management. I asked her to come join me. “you’ll do office stuff, I’ll handle the products.” we had a 10×20 storage unit—no heat, no AC. freezing in winter. we’d box stuff there, then drag it up to Perfect Cut so UPS could pick it up.
she asked, “will I be busy?” I said, “I think you’ll be busy.”
I called a guy—“what do you know about Facebook marketing?”
“not much,” he said, but he was a videographer.
he shot a video of a mower with the Advanced Chute on it, we posted it, boosted it for $250—and boom. 20 orders. 30. 40. and it just snowballed.
we quickly expanded the product line. there’s an episode coming up on the Green Grind where we interviewed my wife—she got emotional talking about it. we worked 80–90 hours a week. Saturdays, Sundays, nonstop.
we hired a warehouse guy. hired Kaz—he still does all our marketing and he’s fantastic. I worked on products day and night. my wife was packaging, shipping—it grew fast.
and honestly? part of it was just… I wanted to build another company. I wanted to see if I could do it again. people said, “Kory got lucky,” or “Matt was the magic.” I wanted to prove I could scale another business to $10M+—without Matt.
a little ego. a little chip on my shoulder. but also—I love the challenge.
last year, we shipped over 350,000 products. we’re up 14% this year. we’re dealing with inventory issues and delays in new product releases, but I tell my team—this is our year to figure things out. next year is our year to scale.
we’ve got 15 to 20 new products in development—from prototypes to nearly finished.
and I’m having fun again. I love the team. it’s a different business model, different problems—but I thrive on the grind. I’m not a sit-back-and-golf kind of guy. I need to build.
Ezra McCarthy
I’m a little more philosophical, but I love to ponder. I mean, any business I’ve had isn’t anything on the scale of yours. But even with my limited business experience, I’ve noticed something—type A people, myself included, often look back and say, “I thought if I could just get to this number, I’d be good.”
And now I’m at four times that number—and I still tell my wife, “It’s not enough.”
There’s a really good book by Andrew Wilkinson—he’s the founder of Tiny, a billionaire—and it talks about this idea of “never enough.”
So I’m just curious, not in a negative way—but what are your thoughts on that idea? The feeling of “never enough”? Because I don’t think you need to come into work anymore. So what keeps driving you?
Kory Ballard
what keeps driving me is—I want to create an amazing company.
and I love seeing our people win.
I want them to have great lives. I’ve got some ownership stuff in place for a few people here. I want to see them win. I want to see them put their kids through college. I want to see them with financial freedom and flexibility.
that’s what motivates me.
I’ve got something unique here—I don’t even pay myself.
people think I’m joking. my wife’s like, “he literally doesn’t take a salary.”
I mean, I do take distributions, so I have cash. but I don’t take a regular salary—because I don’t need to.
if I can take what I would be paid and push that toward the people here who make it happen—why wouldn’t I?
I love the opportunity to invest in my team. I’ve got guys in the warehouse who used to work at Perfect Cut—they love it here. I walk by and high-five them, knuckle them.
I love seeing them love their job.
one of them just bought a new pickup and was so proud of it—and man, that’s the magic for me.
I don’t know if there’s ever such a thing as “enough.” That’s the problem. I mean—I have a therapist, and she says, “Kory, you’re so type A. you can’t get more type A.”
I have a really good life today. I have freedom, flexibility.
my son races all over the country—we were in Oklahoma this weekend, and he picked up another amazing win. That’s the magic for me.
and you said something that makes sense—I had these numbers in mind, and every time I hit them, it was never as great as I thought it’d be.
I remember friends saying, “If I just make X, I’ll be happy.” and then they get to X and they’re like, “That’s it?”
they thought it would feel different—but it didn’t.
the truth is—if you’re driven only by money, man… it’s going to be a rough road.
I feel like—if you just do the right things, the money takes care of itself.
when people say they want to grow their company, I ask them why. if they say, “to make more money,” I’m like—that ain’t gonna work.
you can make more money. but if you want to grow your company to create opportunity, take care of your team, give back to your community—that’s why.
you’ll make more money along the way, sure. hopefully build some equity. but if your only driver is dollars? it’s a tough road.
Ezra McCarthy
there’s a quote I love—I can’t remember who said it, but it goes: “If your why doesn’t make you cry, it’s not big enough.”
that really stuck with me.
alright—I know your time is valuable. any closing thoughts for someone listening? and where’s the best place for them to find you or check out Ballard and Perfect Cut?
Kory Ballard
sure.
yeah, Perfect Cut’s pretty easy to find. it’s a little odd to spell—kind of a goofy name—but it’s perficut.com. really cool website. if you want to check out what a large company looks like from a website standpoint, Perfect Cut’s going to do $32 million this year, I think.
so they’ve grown without me. how did they do that? I don’t know.
and for Ballard, it’s just ballard-inc.com—pretty easy to find on Instagram and Facebook too.
couple things—we didn’t even get through close to all the questions. if you want to get me back on and dive into more stuff, I’d love to. I love talking business.
I think the number one thing I’ll leave you with is—people ask me all the time, “how do I do this?” or “what’s the number one thing I should do?”
my answer is consistency.
you have to be consistent.
you have to show up every day.
you have to do the work for years.
a lot of guys are celebrating their wins too early. they get a couple good years in and they’re like, “we made it.”
but it takes a long time to build a great business.
just like it takes time to get in shape, or be a better father, better husband, better leader, whatever it is.
everybody’s looking for the easy way.
I don’t know the easy way. maybe if I did, I would’ve taken it—maybe not.
but man, you’ve gotta put in the work.
you’ve gotta stick to the program.
you’re going to have bad days. good days. rough weeks.
but you have to keep showing up.
it’s hard.
and it’s supposed to be hard.
and I’m glad it’s hard—because if it wasn’t, I’d have more competition.
running a business is hard.
and someone once told me, “the person who can endure the most pain wins in business.”
because it’s a painful process.
and a lonely one sometimes.
Ezra McCarthy
so good. I think you said something earlier about entrepreneurship being about who can last the longest—and I agree with that.
Kory Ballard
yeah, that sounds about right.
I mean—you don’t have to go full Elon Musk and sleep on a cot in your factory. he’s a little over the top. but hey—he’s very successful.
sometimes it does take an immense amount of dedication. and I think a lot of people quit too early.
we could have quit.
there were so many moments.
some really rough days.
but we didn’t.
we just kept working through it.
and that’s what it takes.
Ezra McCarthy
thanks for coming on, Kory.
well, that wraps up our conversation. and if you’re anything like me, your wheels are turning right now.
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