Episode 5

Ezra McCarthy
Welcome back to the Lawn Care Success Podcast. Today we have Joey Coberley with us—the infamous landscape bookkeeper. We were just chatting before we hit record, and I wanted to dive into Joey’s perspective on employees. Actually, let me rephrase that—I don’t even like the word “employees.” So Joey, how do you view team members? That’s how I like to think of them.

Joey Coberley
I’m kind of a fan of Colonial America, so I see things through that lens a bit. I don’t think they got to run that experiment long enough. I really like the master and apprentice model. Younger people, in my mind, should start as apprentices—doing the hands-on, physical work—and eventually move into mastery or even ownership roles.

Here in America, we’ve kind of outsourced that ownership role to hedge funds and mutual fund managers. Most of us don’t actually own the things we work on. And I think that’s part of the problem.

So to me, people doing the labor—especially younger folks—shouldn’t stay in that apprentice role forever. The goal should be to move them up. But a lot of times, we just stay stuck there. We don’t transition into the master role. That’s how I approach team building. You can push back if you want.

Ezra McCarthy
No, this is interesting. Honestly, I’ve thought for years that mission statements are just corporate fluff—something big companies slap on the wall to sound good. But recently, we actually created one for our own business. And I’ll share it, because it connects to what you’re saying.

Our mission is: to build the best websites and marketing solutions to help businesses grow and stand out online—while giving our team members truly life-changing career opportunities.

That second part is what drives me. I literally sat down with a friend the other day and asked, “What would be an amazing salary for someone in this role?” Because my goal isn’t to just pay the lowest wage I can get away with. It’s to get to a place where I can pay people more than they expect—where it really changes their life.

We’re not there yet, but that’s where we’re heading. It’s about investing in people, not just plugging them into a job.

Ezra McCarthy
They’re very skilled team members, and I’m really glad to have them on board—but they’re not quite at that next level yet. Still, I’m looking ahead. My goal is to get them into a role where this job becomes life-changing—things like health insurance, which we plan to offer after six months, and other benefits we’re working on.

We actually just sent out a survey this morning to ask, “What do you really value?” Is it retirement? Flexibility? Time off? I want to know—not because I’m trying to scrape every dollar off the backs of my people, but because I want to build something with them.

That’s why I always use the word team members. I want to treat them like people, like partners—not just labor. And I think that affects the quality of work they give back. What’s your take on that? I know that was kind of a rant.

Joey Coberly
No, I love that. I think it’s great that you’re looking out for your team. Kevin and I talk about this a lot—it’s kind of like the Main Street Revolution. I’m not a big fan of traditional retirement plans, though—not because I’m against helping people, but because I believe in personal ownership and responsibility.

I’ve worked in stocks before, and it just felt empty. I was investing in things I didn’t understand or care about. I had no real say. And to me, handing over my future to a 401(k) or a mutual fund is giving away responsibility for the wealth I’ve worked to build.

Instead, I want to own things I understand—whether that’s local real estate, my business, or something that benefits the community. That’s where I try to put my money—back into people, back into my town, back into something I can be a part of.

And if I’ve got great team members? Yeah, I’d love to give them a piece of the business. That would make me happy. Sam Walton did that early on—he gave managers ownership, and people thought he was nuts. But it worked because it created trust and buy-in.

To me, it’s not about just handing people stuff—it’s about delegating responsibility and giving ownership to people who have earned it. It’s kind of a hybrid of capitalism and community. There are flaws with both systems, but when people build something together, they should have a chance to share in it.

Ezra McCarthy
Well, I think I’d push back a little there. Giving ownership sounds great in theory—but how many small businesses actually sell or scale? So, if you’re giving someone equity in a business that never sells or doesn’t generate passive value, are you really giving them something meaningful?

And this isn’t a knock on your business—or mine—it’s just a reality check. I think Warren Buffett said something about this…

Joey Coberly
Yeah, I agree…

Ezra McCarthy
I think it was Charlie Munger who said something like, “Follow the incentives and you’ll find the result.” I’m paraphrasing, but that idea has stuck with me. That’s also how I view retirement—through matching. I want to encourage my team to invest in themselves. I tell them, “If you want a raise, the best way is to ask, how can I learn and do better?”

Not in a way that says, “You’re never good enough,” but to help them see: You can do more, and when you do more, you can earn more. I want them to grow—not just be stretched thin—but grow as people and professionals.

If a team member is the same two years from now, then I’ve failed as a leader. And if the business is the same, then I’ve failed there too. We have to be getting better. That’s how I see it.

Personally, I invest in mutual funds. Not a ton, and not individual stocks very often. But I also tithe monthly. I’m a Christian, and I believe in leaving a legacy. The Bible says the righteous leave something for their children’s children. So giving, generosity, and long-term value—it all matters.

That’s why my goal is to create career opportunities, not just short-term perks. And from my perspective, giving equity or shares in the company isn’t always the right message. I’m not against it—it just depends.

Joey Coberly
Yeah, and I’m not saying it as a blanket statement. I’m not handing out ownership to everyone. But in my ideal world, I would love to do that for the right people. It would make me incredibly happy. But you’re right—it’s rare.

And I get it—the audience probably missed the start of this conversation, so they’re hearing just this part. But I’m talking about my personal journey.

I’ve done everything in the stock market—short selling, options trading, writing contracts. I’ve been deep into it. And at the end of the day, it felt empty. Why? Because I realized the money I was investing was being used by companies I didn’t support—companies I had zero say in.

When your money is in the market, it’s all about profit. That’s the goal of the people managing those funds. But I’m not profit-driven. I’m value-driven and community-driven. That’s what my company is built on.

So now, instead of diversifying, I’m putting everything back into my company. I want to scale it, grow it, serve more people. And honestly, this is a recent shift for me. After 10 or 15 years in the market, I realized it was kind of a dead end for me.

I know Buffett and Munger aren’t fans of diversification either. They’ve said diversification is for people who don’t know what they’re doing. And that hit me hard.

Ezra McCarthy
That’s me.

Joey Coberly
Exactly. If you listen to Buffett and Munger enough—I’ve spent hundreds of hours studying Buffett—he always comes back to the idea of your circle of competence. That’s what allows you to avoid unnecessary diversification. If you deeply understand what you’re investing in, your risk goes down.

But if you’re investing in things you don’t understand? Then yeah, you better diversify. That’s the Buffett-Munger rule. They invest within their circle of competence and keep a very tight portfolio.

Buffett’s even said he’d be comfortable holding just three stocks, and that’s with billions under management. He’s okay with that because he fully understands those businesses. He doesn’t try to time the market or chase trends. Every investment he makes, he acts like he knows the business inside and out.

Ezra McCarthy
Have you read Snowball, the biography on Warren Buffett? It talks about where the name Berkshire Hathaway came from. Basically, it was a failing textile mill he got in over his head with… but I’ll spare the details.

Joey Coberly
Yeah, I haven’t read Snowball, but I did read Roger Lowenstein’s book on Buffett. I really liked that one.

Ezra McCarthy
I haven’t seen that one—I’ll have to check it out. I just tried to find the most in-depth biography I could, and Snowball was the one everyone recommended. But yeah, anyway, we’re getting a little off track here. It’s all interesting stuff, though.

Joey Coberly
Yeah, I love it. I could talk about this stuff all day. It gets philosophical and brings the human side into business. That’s what it’s really about—people development.

Ezra McCarthy
Exactly. And one thing I always point out—especially in our industry, lawn and landscape—is this: we both serve this space. You’re a bookkeeper, I’m in marketing. But what a lot of business owners get wrong is this idea that profit is selfish. It’s not.

If you’re not making a profit, you won’t be here next year to serve anybody. And to me, that’s bad service. Yes, I’m here to serve. But profit enables service. It funds growth, opportunity, and long-term impact.

Ezra McCarthy
Now, Joey—we got a little off track there, but let’s bring it back in. You’re a bookkeeper who works specifically with lawn and landscape companies.

So let me ask you this just for fun: If you were going to name a lawn care business based on bad bookkeeping habits, what would you call it?

Joey Coberly
[Laughs] Probably something like Help Me, LLC. That’s usually what it feels like when people call us. Most of the time, it’s someone who’s in over their head.

They should’ve hired a bookkeeper a year ago, but they were used to handling $100K in household income. So they thought, “I can manage $100K in business revenue, no big deal.” But then they hit $500K, $600K, $700K—and now they’ve got money flying in every direction.

They’re just turning the wheels trying to keep it all going, and eventually they call us saying, “Please help me get organized.” That’s most of the calls we get.

Joey Coberly
When someone calls us saying “Can you help me get organized?” it’s rarely because they want to understand their numbers or their business cycles. It’s usually just, “Help—I’m overwhelmed. I need assistance.”

Ezra McCarthy
So is that the biggest mistake you see? Just total disorganization?

Joey Coberly
Probably, yeah. But I look at it differently. I believe in preparing for what’s coming, even if you don’t know what’s about to hit you. Most people don’t even realize a problem is coming until they’re knee-deep in it.

To be honest, I’d say most businesses under $500K in revenue don’t even know what a bookkeeper is. They don’t know the difference between a bookkeeper and an accountant. Bookkeeping? It might as well be “bookie” to them—it’s a foreign concept.

Ezra McCarthy
That’s so true. For those smaller businesses—say $100K, $200K, or $300K a year—what are some numbers they should be tracking monthly? Or even weekly?

Joey Coberly
Yeah, I’m more focused on monthly. I’m not a business coach, so I’m not in there every day tracking the small stuff. But if you want a daily habit—track your time. You need to know how long things take. That leads to knowing your man-hour rate, which is gold.

Know how long tasks take you, and know how long it would take to train someone else to do them. That’s a major step toward delegating and scaling.

On a monthly basis, our work is education-focused. Most lawn care guys didn’t take finance classes—they don’t even know where to start. School didn’t prepare them for this, and finance feels boring or irrelevant—until they realize it’s very relevant.

When they realize that, they want to learn. And I believe anyone can understand finance—you just need a reason that makes it matter to you.

I talk a lot with our clients about wealth creation—because most people only know one model: earn a salary, invest in a retirement plan, and hope it grows. But I teach how to build something real, something that can be passed down, keep money local, and give you freedom.

You can build wealth way faster by growing a business than by investing in the stock market.

But to sell a business one day, you have to scale it. And the business has to be able to run without you. That’s the big bottleneck—owners being too tied to the daily operations. You’ve got to build systems, delegate responsibility, and know your margins. Some guys have bad margins and try to scale anyway, and then they get stuck around $500K. I see it all the time.

That’s a huge part of what we help with. And I know I’m off on a bit of a tangent, but maybe you can pull me back in.

Ezra McCarthy
No, that’s good. I know you and Megan specifically work with the lawn and landscape industry. Have you worked with any companies that have sold, or tried to? How did it go—or why didn’t it work?

Joey Coberly
Almost all of our clients onboard with us when they’re under $250,000 in revenue. And I do that on purpose.

I want to catch problems before they happen, not just clean up after. Most CPA firms don’t get involved until things are already a mess. My approach is different: prepare through understanding. So I want to start early and scale with them.

Our typical client is a younger business—3 to 8 years old. So most haven’t sold yet, though I’ve seen a few small-scale sales.

We recently brought on a new partner who has a ton of experience in selling businesses. That’s actually one of the reasons I partnered with him. I know how to scale a company, but I haven’t personally sold one through a broker. I’ve done it through the stock market, but that’s not the same as preparing a business for a buyer.

This new partner helps us add that layer—so when our clients are ready to sell, we can walk them through it. He’s a great guy and a perfect fit for what we’re building.

Ezra McCarthy
I won’t say his name, but yeah—he’s a good guy. I’ll just leave it at that. And hey, if you want to find out more, you’ll have to listen to Joey’s podcast.

So Joey, once you get inside the back end of these lawn and landscape companies, are there any big red flags that hit you right away?

Joey Coberly
Yeah, definitely. The biggest ones are:

1. Not enough cash,
   
   
2. Scaling too early with low cash,
   
   
3. Bad pricing—bringing on a lot of underpriced customers, and then not being able to raise prices without losing them,
   
   
4. And hiring team members too soon, especially when the business isn’t ready.
   
   

I see owners bring on office staff before they even have systems in place. So the person sits there, not sure what to do, and the owner blames them—but they never gave that person clear SOPs (Standard Operating Procedures). That’s a recipe for waste and frustration.

The truth is, you need to push the business to the edge before hiring that first admin. And above all, you need your pricing dialed in. You can’t scale a company successfully on broken margins.

Ezra McCarthy
That makes sense. So with most of your clients onboarding just before the $250K mark, when do you recommend they bring on office help? And have you seen any success with hiring virtual assistants—like someone from the Philippines? One of my clients uses one for quoting, emails, even phone calls.

Joey Coberly
Yeah, I’ve seen people try it, and in theory, it should work. But I haven’t seen enough consistent patterns yet to speak on it confidently. I’m a pattern guy—if I start seeing it working across the board, then I’ll talk more about it.

As far as hiring office staff here, you’ve got to have a clear plan. If you’re hiring someone at $30K–$40K a year, you can’t afford to have them just sitting there figuring things out. You’ve got to know what you want them to do—and you have to train them well.

I just did a podcast with Kevin Salters about this. It was on SOPs, and Kevin said if you’re going to bring someone on, try to find a self-starter—someone who can actually help write the SOPs for you. That’s a big deal. Most lawn care owners are awesome in the field but terrible in the office, especially when it comes to training and creating documentation.

So if you can’t write SOPs yourself, hire someone who can. Otherwise, you’re setting them—and yourself—up for failure.

As far as when to bring them on? It depends. It’s about how much time you want to buy back. If you’re overbooked, and your sales and marketing are strong, then yeah—it may be time. But you have to be careful because admin is non-billable overhead. That $30K–$40K expense adds up quick if you don’t have enough leads and work to justify it.

So having your marketing dialed in—whether that’s web, SEO, ads—that’s critical before bringing on that office staff.

Ezra McCarthy
Absolutely. You’ve got to have that in place. And like you said, there are a lot of solid options out there—yours, Brandable, others. Just pick someone.

There are over 600,000 lawn and landscape companies in the U.S. I see them every day. And honestly? So many of them have awful marketing. No website. Or a website that looks like it’s from 2005. It’s bad.

But that’s actually a huge opportunity for anyone listening. If you’re trying to do better, even just having a clean, simple one-page site puts you ahead of most of the competition. The bar is low—so this is your window.

And personally, I’m a big fan of hiring from the Philippines. I have an executive assistant from there, and she’s amazing. Like with any hire, you have to find the right person—but when you do, it can be a total game-changer.

Joey Coberly
Mm-hmm, absolutely.

Ezra McCarthy
Hiring is huge. You can’t just pick the first person holding a cardboard sign that says “Looking for work” and hope for the best. There has to be a process. You’ve got to do it intentionally—because hiring is about buying back your time.

You mentioned that earlier, and it reminded me of the book Buy Back Your Time by Dan Martell. Not sure if you’ve read it?

Joey Coberly
I haven’t read it, but I’ve lived by that concept for a long time.

Ezra McCarthy
It’s tremendous. One of the things he teaches is called the CAM Framework—it’s a little dated, but it still works. Basically, if you’re doing a task over and over, record yourself doing it. Then, instead of explaining it a hundred times to new hires, just send them the recording.

For computer tasks, use a tool like Loom—it’s super cheap and lets you screen record and narrate. Or use Zoom. Whatever’s easiest. But the key idea is: document it once and make it repeatable. It saves a ton of time.

That said, let’s pivot to a big one—debt. Since you’re on the backend of these businesses, what’s your take? Do you see debt as a growth tool or a trap—especially for small to mid-sized companies under $1M?

Joey Coberly
I view everything through a biblical lens, just like you do, Ezra. Personally, I don’t want debt in my life. But do I care if someone else uses it? No, not at all.

What I’ve noticed is this: if you’re single, debt can sometimes work. Hustlers in their early twenties who can grind 80 hours a week? They can take a risk and sometimes make it work.

But if you’re married with kids, that changes everything. Most wives want security. They don’t want financial stress in the house. So when a guy takes on a bunch of debt to grow his business, the stress trickles down. It affects the home. Then it circles back and affects him, and now he’s not the leader his team needs—because he’s constantly distracted and anxious.

So that’s the pattern I’ve seen. I’m not saying it never works. But more often than not, debt becomes a burden, not a blessing.

Debt is borrowing from future prosperity. You’ll always have to pay the piper eventually.

And you don’t have to use debt to grow fast. Look at Andy Mulder. He’s 38, worth $3.7 million, running a successful hardscape business—which is equipment-heavy—and he’s done it all with no debt.

That proves you can scale without leverage. So yeah, I’ll always recommend the no-debt route. But if someone insists on using it, I can help them use it wisely—like understanding ROIC (Return on Invested Capital) and making smart choices.

Still, for me personally—I just don’t use debt.

Ezra McCarthy
Yeah, there’s a lot of danger there—especially in our industry. And when you combine debt with seasonality, things can spiral fast.

I remember back when I was in college, there was a landscaper in the Midwest. He had year-round contracts with his employees—paid them a fixed salary per month, even in winter.

Normally, that works because of snow removal. But one year? No snow. So now he had to pay his crew every month, with zero income coming in.

He ended up going into debt just to keep things afloat. It turned into a really dangerous cycle.

So with that seasonal risk baked into lawn and landscape—especially outside of Florida—how do the successful companies you work with handle it? How do they plan for those slower months?

Joey Coberly
Yeah, so if you’re working with us, I usually recommend saving up three months of operating expenses before trying to really scale. That emergency fund can carry you through the slow winter months with way less stress.

Another thing is knowing your break-even point during the off-season. Just understanding what you need to bring in to survive makes a huge difference. Sometimes you just need that one clear number in your head.

Paul Jamison talks about this a lot. I gave him his break-even number years ago, and he hasn’t dropped below it—not once in four years. It gave him clarity.

At the smaller levels, I see guys doing all sorts of side hustles during the winter—flipping cars, whatever it takes to avoid going into debt. Because here’s the trap: you hit winter, there’s no revenue, then in April, you’re slammed with work—but you’ve got to wait 30 to 60 days to get paid, especially on commercial accounts. It’s a double whammy.

Having that emergency fund + knowing your break-even = massive difference.

Ezra McCarthy
So what patterns or habits have you seen that really separate the businesses that are growing well from the ones that are always struggling?

Joey Coberly
The ones that struggle the most are the control freaks—the ones who won’t let anyone else do anything.

They refuse to delegate. They won’t create SOPs. They think they have to be in charge of everything, and it holds them back. At some point, you’ve got to let go.

At the same time, the businesses that grow the most are run by people who focus on sales and marketing. It’s not about who’s the best mower operator. It’s who can brand their company, generate leads, and close work. And who can delegate that work efficiently.

So yeah, the patterns I see are:

1. The best companies delegate well.
   
   
2. They get good at sales and marketing.
   
   
3. And they save money consistently.
   
   

Those that don’t do any of that? They stay stuck.

Ezra McCarthy
That’s so true. People get weirdly personal about things that don’t matter—like, “I only run Exmark mowers.” Why? I realized I only liked Exmark because the lawn companies around my college used them. That’s it. No real reason!

It’s the same with trucks. I like Toyotas. They’re reliable. But at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter—as long as it gets the job done and doesn’t break down every other week.

People get caught up in the minutia. “No one can do it like I can.” Well, that’s probably true. But if someone can do it 80% as well, that’s still amazing.

Dan Martell says it best: “80% done is 100% awesome.”

Once you experience letting go and see how much freedom it gives you, you can’t unsee it. I look back and cringe at how many dumb mistakes I made because I was afraid to delegate.

There’s another book I love too—Who Not How. So many of us ask, “How can I do this?” when we should be asking, “Who can help me do this?”

You can’t double your hours. But you can find the right who.

Ezra McCarthy
Or think about it this way: Who can I bring on? It doesn’t always mean a business partner. It could be a marketing company, someone like Joey doing your bookkeeping, or a new team member.

Instead of going into “do more, do more” mode—which I get, there’s a popular book out there that says “10x everything”—but I’m not a big fan of that idea. At some point, you physically can’t do more. You’ll burn yourself out, and your family will feel it too. That’s just not a healthy way to live or run a business.

Instead, what if you brought on team members who could do that work—and give it 100% of their focus? They’ll eventually become better at it than you. It won’t take long.

Because as the owner, your attention is everywhere. You’re thinking about a hundred things at once—customer complaints, team issues, next steps. Just like bookkeeping—it’s probably a mess if no one’s helping you.

Joey Coberly
Absolutely, man.

I always try to position myself so I’m only thinking about what grows the company. And the more quality people I surround myself with, the fewer decisions I have to make.

You’ve got to focus on profitability. If you’re not profitable, you can’t buy your time back. You’ll stay stuck in the same cycle forever. I like to think of it like this: if you were a farmer 2,000 years ago, and your animals never gave birth or you never invested in feeding them well, your farm wouldn’t grow. It would stay stuck.

It’s the same with your business. Profit is the fuel. If your company isn’t producing profit, you can’t grow. You can’t delegate. You’ll be stuck forever doing everything yourself.

That’s why Megan and I focused hard on profitability early. And as a result, we’ve bought back a ton of our time. Most of my day now is spent talking to people, developing products, collaborating, and delegating. I’m not bogged down in the day-to-day anymore.

And honestly, it’s not just about “profit-first.” We focused on the customer first. Get your pricing right, serve your customer well—and the profit will follow.

Ezra McCarthy
That’s so good. I’ve heard people say, “I can’t afford to hire help.” But really—you can’t afford not to. I get it—if you’re just starting out and nothing’s coming in, you’re not ready yet. But that’s not who we’re talking to right now.

We’re talking to the folks who are maxed out. And if that’s you, it’s time to start trimming. What I mean by that is: cut your low-quality clients. We all have those customers who drain our time and energy. Kindly refer them out.

Ezra McCarthy
And sometimes it’s just better to let those difficult clients go—serve someone else instead. I was just telling someone the other day: the cheapest clients often want the most work. Meanwhile, the people paying 10 times more? They’re easier, more respectful, and require less time.

I’m not saying people with smaller budgets don’t deserve great service, but sometimes they’re just not the right fit. And that’s okay. I’ve had to learn that not everyone is right for me—and that’s fine.

Joey Coberly
Exactly. You’ve got to be okay with that. I try to just be myself. If people resonate with my message and my values—awesome, let’s work together. If not? That’s cool too.

I just want to work with people I enjoy partnering with, because that’s what a community is—people working toward a shared vision. So I put my values out there, and if that attracts people—great. If it repels others—also fine.

Ezra McCarthy
Alright, Joey—last couple of questions to wrap this up. If you could give one financial golden rule to lawn and landscape business owners, what would it be?

Joey Coberly
Easy. Have an emergency fund. I’ll preach that until the day I die.

You hear it from all the financial leaders—Dave Ramsey, Kevin O’Leary, Brandon Gray, Gregg Crabtree—they all say the same thing. We’ve had 15+ years of economic prosperity, but everything runs in cycles. You’re going to have highs and lows.

It’s like Warren Buffett says: “When the tide goes out, you find out who’s been swimming naked.” It’s easy to grow with debt when the economy’s booming—but when things turn? You’ll be exposed.

Especially in lawn care—and even more in hardscaping—it’s cyclical. One slow season, and you’re in trouble. So just take a year and save that emergency fund. It gives you peace of mind and keeps you steady.

Ezra McCarthy
Great advice. So if someone’s listening and thinking, “My books are a mess and I need help,” who’s your ideal client?

Joey Coberly
Our business is really geared toward companies that are five years old or less, doing under $500K in revenue. Most of our clients are in that $250K-and-under range when they first join us.

We specialize in simple service businesses—mowing, fertilization, applications. We’re not a fit for companies doing deep job costing, like advanced hardscape work. If you need help organizing, sure, we can help, but we don’t go deep into project-level costing.

What we do best is education-focused bookkeeping. We’ll walk you through your P&L, balance sheet, and cash flow. I’m all about teaching you how to understand your numbers—not just throwing reports at you.

So if you’re in that early growth stage, under $500K, want to scale, and value learning, we’re probably a great fit. If you’ve been in business 20 years and have super custom processes—maybe not the best fit, but we’re happy to chat.

Ezra McCarthy
Awesome. And where can they go to connect with you?

Joey Coberly
Just head over to thelandscapingbookkeeper.com and schedule a 15-minute Good Fit Call. It’s free—just to see if we’re a good match. If it feels right for both of us, we’ll schedule a one-hour consultation, also free.

Then we’ll collect some details, like how many transactions you have, and we’ll send you a proposal. No pressure, just a conversation.

Ezra McCarthy
That’s great, Joey. Thanks again—always a pleasure chatting with you. Hope this episode brought value to everyone listening, and we’ll catch you on the next one.

Joey Coberly
Thanks, Ezra. Always enjoy it.

Ezra McCarthy
Take care.