Ezra McCarthy
Hello and welcome back to the lawn care success podcast. Today we’re sitting down with Grayson Sawyer, the owner of Sawyer Landscaping in North Carolina, who took a mower and a lot of hard work and turned it into a profitable lawn landscape business. If you’re finding yourself stuck with all the hats, grinding it out, wondering how to break through, then this podcast is for you. Grayson, glad you’re here today. Yeah, so do you want to tell us a little bit about your business, where you are now and where you kind of came from?
Greyson Sawyer
Good to be here, man. Yeah, we started full-time back in 2017. Before 2017, I was in community college and was mowing some grass on the side just to make some extra money to kind of just have some money. And kind of did that like a year, my last year in high school as well. And then 2017, I was working another job through 2016 and part of 2017 and got fairly busy doing both. Took a leap and just quit the other job and went full-time 2017. Now we are up to 10 employees and four crews running daily.
Ezra McCarthy
When you started, did you have enough work lined up that you were really busy or were you just kind of thinking, okay, we’re going to jump and kind of build a plane on the way down?
Greyson Sawyer
Yeah, we definitely did not have quite enough work for what I would have preferred. It was one of those things where I knew when I quit the other job that I was busy enough to stay busy and pay the bills, but definitely not a total full schedule. And so I was out there trying to do what I could to get some extra work, just kind of hustling and doing what I could. I knew my main concern. I knew that first winter was going to be slow and a problem, but we made it through and it was okay.
We had some scattered jobs through that first winter and kind of carried us through and was able to make it. But it was definitely a little slow in the beginning. But I knew that if I jumped out and quit the other job, I could put all my attention on the business and give it a lot more attention to grow.
Ezra McCarthy
So one year after you went full time, what did your business look like then?
Greyson Sawyer
About a year later, we gained a fair amount of extra clients after I quit the other job doing regular lawn maintenance. So the next year we started out—I don’t remember how many clients or whatever we had—but we had a good clientele base. It was just me and one employee. I had a guy that went with me and we mowed a full route and then did a little bit of landscape jobs here and there on like Fridays, because I think we had four days of mowing.
But that spring of 2018, we did pick up enough accounts to be a full four days of mowing. So we went from just a few days of mowing by myself to four full days of mowing with a guy with me by that second season. A little bit more of looking like a business by that second year and enough to keep us busy pretty much all week with me and a guy. So that’s kind of how that first full year went, especially after that spring rush of 2018—we filled up a full week schedule pretty much that year.
Ezra McCarthy
So did you start with a team member from the very beginning or did you hire him kind of more that second year in 2018?
Greyson Sawyer
Yeah, so 2017 I used a friend that worked like part-time just kind of as I needed him. He was in college and he kind of worked some when he could. And it was me by myself a lot. But by 2018, I ended up hiring a full-time employee to be with me every day.
Ezra McCarthy
Looking back, do you find that you grew quicker than you thought? Or did you kind of have unrealistic expectations like we’re going to be here in so long? Or did you just have kind of no idea?
Greyson Sawyer
I’ll be honest with you, I didn’t know what I was doing in the beginning. I just knew I wanted to make money and support my family and pay the bills. I didn’t really have—like until a couple years in—I didn’t really have many goals for the business. I didn’t have a revenue goal or any kind of goal really. I was just out there trying to make money.
I knew I enjoyed being outside and being in the elements and not being stuck inside of a building. I enjoyed that much better. I knew I liked it. I knew I didn’t care to work hard. I just kind of done it.
But looking back on it with more of a growth mindset the last several years, I realized I could have done better and probably grown the company even faster than I did. But at the time, like I said, I didn’t know where I really wanted to go with it. It was a couple of years in before I ever really knew what I wanted to do with it or if I wanted it to grow or have any kind of goals.
Yeah, that first couple of years I was just trying to get enough work to keep us busy and pay the bills for sure. So I was doing something, but I wasn’t really sure where I wanted to go and didn’t have a whole lot of goals in that first year to two years.
Ezra McCarthy
So this is something I love asking people about. You mentioned you didn’t have clear goals at the beginning. A couple of years in, you kind of started to—so now, do you have a clear vision of where the business is going? And do you regularly try to think about that?
Greyson Sawyer
I know a lot of people have these really strong goals for what they want to be in five years or ten years. I’ve never been one of the guys that looks super far ahead. I do look ahead, and I definitely have these goals like, hey, I want to reach a certain point. I definitely want to get to this certain thing, but I’ve never had strict revenue goals in my head or anything someone might want to use as a goal marker.
The biggest thing I’ve had in my head since probably the second year was—I love doing this. I love being out here, but I could tell right away that I don’t want to be doing this when I’m 50. I can tell this is something that’s hard on your body. I enjoy it, but I know I don’t want to be doing this way down the road.
So my goal was like, how do I grow it to where we get somewhere where not only can I be out of the field, but we have systems and processes that help the company run so it’s not so dependent on one person—being me.
That was kind of a main goal that I’ve had the last few years. I don’t necessarily know an exact number. I do know that you’ve got to be a certain size to make that happen. If you’re too small, you have to be involved a lot. Because if not, at a certain size, you can’t afford to hire those positions to make the company run like that.
So I knew that, but I’ve never had a… I would make revenue goals kind of for the year—just the one year—but I’ve never had a ten-year goal like “I want to be doing this much” or five years out. It’s more so like, I know we have to grow and keep growing to get to the point where we can have enough management, manpower, and systems running the thing properly.
To where it can run on systems and management rather than one person having to work 70 hours a week to keep things running smoothly. So that’s been my goal the last few years. Whatever size that might be. I really don’t know revenue-wise exactly. I know it’s not a real small number. You have to grow—a company that runs that way has to be fairly large to afford it.
Ezra McCarthy
You know, it’s so interesting. I love goals, and I’ve got my goal list right here in front of me. I try to read it every day. But I agree with you—sometimes projecting out even past two years, I think back a year or two, and I look at where my projections were and just laugh. Thankfully, I’m more than what I thought I would be.
But even with offerings or different things in business, you think back like, wow, it went in such a completely different direction. But obviously, you need some sort of benchmark, right? Because you’re not going to get there otherwise.
Was there a moment where you said, okay—maybe you were burnt out, working 70 hours—and you realized something’s got to change? Was there a moment in your business where you may not have had a clear goal specifically, but you realized, I’ve got to do something different?
Greyson Sawyer
Yeah, I think—I don’t know if I can recall one exact moment—but I remember just being really, I guess it was three or four years in, when it started getting clear that I was working really hard, putting in so much effort and time. And it felt like everything relied on my shoulders.
It was one of those things where I thought, if I’m gone for more than a day or two, this company would drive right into the ground. Like, it just wouldn’t function without me. And we’re not there yet still. I’m just now getting to where I have some management roles, and the company still relies on me pretty heavily.
I know it’s going to rely on me heavily for a while, but we’ve gotten much, much further along the last few years compared to where we were. But I knew—I mean, I was working in the field, running estimates late at night on the computer, up late looking at jobs on Saturdays. I was working a lot of hours just trying to keep everything going—being in the field every day and then having to do all the sales and the quoting and everything like that.
Really, probably about three years ago is when it hit me: I want to grow this thing to where I’m not working 75 hours just to keep it all rolling.
And now I’m out of the field. So my full-time job is more of an office role—as an estimator and salesman—which is great because that takes up a lot of time now. There’s no way I could work in the field anymore and do what I’m doing now while keeping everything going.
So I just knew a few years ago that I didn’t want to do that forever. I had to get past that point. And we’re still a long way from where we want to be. We’ve got a lot more systems to build, and we’re trying to get things running smoothly without everything going directly through me all the time.
But we’ve definitely come a long way. So yeah, probably a few years ago is when it hit me that we had to make some kind of change and grow.
Ezra McCarthy
Now, Grayson, a lot of people are probably right where you were three years ago. They’re busy, they’re running like crazy—especially during spring rush. How did you kind of transition out of that? Because obviously you were estimating, you were working hard, you had expenses, and then obviously to hire great people costs a lot. So how did you push beyond that to where you are today, where you’re able to completely get out of the field?
Greyson Sawyer
So it does take great people. And that’s one thing I realized quickly. There are going to be people that you can just tell are not going to be leaders or the type of person who could help run job sites. And so it took a while.
Honestly, I know contractors have a really hard time with that. And that’s one reason some people have a hard time growing the company—it’s just the lack of finding good, qualified people. Even if you do pay well, it can be really hard.
I went through a couple of years where it was hard to find really good guys. Thank God I was blessed with some guys that do a really good job, who are eager to learn and eager to grow with the company. They’re not just here for a paycheck—they’re here to do something and grow.
So that was really a key thing for me. And I’ve learned a lot too. I know I could do things better now, with getting out of the field. Even if my best guys left, I think we could still make things happen.
There are always guys out there—you just have to find them. Sometimes it does take more training than you’d prefer, getting guys up to speed on everything, especially on the landscape construction side, which is a little more in-depth than just maintenance work.
But it truly did take finding some awesome guys who were able to start taking a lot of responsibility off my plate, and I was able to get out of the field from doing that. And growing like we did—it was one of those things where something had to happen, or I was either going to be working 80 hours a week or I was going to quit.
Ezra McCarthy
So this is an interesting question. This is something that I’ve struggled with—and I’ll tell you my answer after you do—but when you hire, do you hire for skill or for attitude, or maybe a mixture of the two? How do you approach that?
Greyson Sawyer
I’ve always said, after dealing with some guys with poor attitudes for a while, I would much prefer to find the guy with the right attitude and no skill than a guy who has a poor attitude but skill.
Thankfully, I’ve found a little bit of both in a couple of guys—they had a little bit of experience, not a ton. They still took some training, and we’re still doing some training with them—even the same guys. Just certain aspects they still need to learn in some areas.
But if they’ve got the right attitude and they’re willing to work hard, it’s so much easier. I would much rather take a guy with a good attitude who’s willing to learn and take instruction—and even criticism, if need be—to learn and grow.
Those guys normally go much further than a guy who thinks he knows everything. I’ve never really had many guys that knew everything they thought they did. Most of my guys had a little bit of experience, but they still took a lot of training—and they took it well. They were willing to learn. Eager to learn.
Ezra McCarthy
I think this is so important, and it’s something I’ve struggled with—knowing how to hire. And I think I’ve probably settled on a similar thing. I’ve made those mistakes with people who, and I don’t think age matters in this, but if they’re not willing to learn and they don’t want to be part of the team, then I don’t care how much experience they have.
I remember one guy—I was interviewing him and I called his previous boss. And that’s always a good thing I’ve learned—you’ve got to call the references or check in on their previous jobs.
Because this… well, anyway, I won’t go into all the stories, but it was not good. And I was like, okay, good call there—call the references.
It takes time. And what I’ve learned is, call those previous ones. Take the time. If the person’s in a big rush, it’s probably not a good fit. Because A-players—and I mean this in the best sense possible—they don’t need you.
They don’t need me.
So take the time, obviously. And then treat them right. And I’m sure you do, knowing you.
Greyson Sawyer
Yeah, it definitely takes—obviously—paying well and treating guys well. Everybody wants to be treated well, and I think that’s a big thing. We try to do that here too, so that obviously plays a role.
Ezra McCarthy
And it’s so interesting. I remember—and I’ve said the quote before—but out of the 10 reasons people quit, Seth Godin had this in one of his books. Now I’m going to forget the title… The Song of Significance—that’s the book. And pay was number six or seven on the list.
So many times in our heads we think, okay, it’s pay—but it’s not.
So where have you gone to find these quality team members? Are you posting on job boards? Are you using current team members to refer others? What’s the method there?
Greyson Sawyer
Yeah, so I mean, we have found guys through places like Indeed and other job boards, and we’ve found some good guys that way.
But I will say, I’ve found my best guys—I’ve known a couple of them for a long time. I know that doesn’t always work out for some people, especially when it comes to hiring friends. But my guys weren’t really close friends—I just knew them, had known them for a little while, and that worked out well for a couple of them.
After that, some of their friends came along and they referred them because they’ve enjoyed working here.
Honestly, getting good guys will lead to more good guys. And that’s what’s happened with me. I’ve got a couple of good ones, and the word spreads—and people want to come work here.
Obviously, as you grow, you’re still going to have to hire and find guys you know nothing about. That happens.
But I definitely started out with one or two guys I kind of knew. And now, I have several either that I know, or my guys already working here know—and the word spread, and they just wanted to come be a part of it.
Ezra McCarthy
So if someone listening is right around the $150K–$200K mark and they’re just kind of burnt out, struggling, what advice would you give to them?
Greyson Sawyer
Yeah, at that size range, I remember I was doing more field labor for sure at that time. That’s mostly field labor at that revenue range.
And it does feel like you’re just grinding hard in the field every day. You can get burned out pretty easily—working hard every single day, all day, in the heat or whatever.
I would say, if they’re getting burnt out and their goal is to grow the company—because if you’re burnt out and don’t know if you even want to grow, that’s a different story. If you want to stay small but you’re still burnt out, then that’s a hard spot to be in. You’re going to be kind of stuck there.
But if your goal is to grow and you’re stuck at that kind of spot, and you’re feeling a little burnout—I remember just thinking, I’ve got to get through these phases. I’ve got to keep going. I’ve got to keep pushing.
I remember thinking, like—I can see it. After the first year or two, I could see that I’d grown this much so far. I’d grown this much in a year, this much in two years. I could see the trajectory. I never knew exactly how things would work out, but I could just see we’re going to keep growing. We’re going to keep getting there.
So you’ve just got to keep pushing.
If your goals are to get out of the field and be a salesman or estimator—or to have guys and a team—just take the steps you can to get there.
Obviously, you can’t outgrow yourself sometimes. You’ve got to put in the hard work for a while.
But I would just say, keep pushing. Keep making connections. Connections are huge. Be around the right people. Get the right support. Get the right employees.
Because once you feel like you’ve got the guys, then if you’re able to grow the sales and get the work, the team will follow.
I think getting a good first lead guy is huge. Then you can start passing things off to him as you step a little away from the field.
So getting a good lead guy would be the first thing I’d recommend—trying to find that guy could be a good step.
Because I think in most markets, the business is there if you’re willing to put in the effort and work hard.
Ezra McCarthy
So good. So as you’ve grown here this past eight years—obviously you’ve come from just starting from scratch—what are some mindset shifts that you’ve seen as you’ve grown personally and in the business?
Greyson Sawyer
You know, I used to think—I guess my mindset has changed in that I used to focus a lot more on the small things. Like what equipment we were using or, I don’t know, maybe just thinking smaller, for sure.
And I guess you don’t want to think too far ahead all at once, maybe, but I realized I was stuck on little things that really just didn’t move the needle or didn’t matter as much.
So maybe the mindset shift was going from thinking about small things to now thinking ahead to the future and where we could be.
Trying to focus more on what will really move the needle.
Because some of those small things—whatever they were—you look back and they just don’t really matter. And you end up spending a lot of time thinking about it, worrying about it, or chasing it.
So if you’re looking to grow, try to think ahead. Think about what it’s going to take to get where you want to be a few years down the road—and what will really make a difference.
Ezra McCarthy
Have you had any business mentors or people that you look up to in our industry? And if so, how did you find them?
Greyson
Originally, I did get on Instagram and YouTube a little bit and just watched stuff. I would watch the guys that posted content and try to learn from that. And I did—I’ve learned a ton online.
There’s so much to see and so much to learn just by watching free stuff—YouTube, Instagram—and learning through what other people are doing.
I think it’s a great way to learn. Looking at what you aspire to be, looking at guys who are kind of at a spot where you’d love to grow to. That helped a ton.
I didn’t have any specific people that were a huge deal in the first few years—just multiple guys online that I would watch. Maybe even the influencer guys who had pages, or I’d just be researching like “how to do this,” looking stuff up.
But then in the last couple of years, I started using a business coach. I have a business coach in the industry. Right now, I had another coach and recently switched to Alex Kirby.
I don’t know if you know him, but he’s…
Ezra McCarthy
How’s it helped? I presume you’re still doing it?
Greyson Sawyer
Yeah, I just switched to him recently. I had another coach before him for a good while, and he was great—I didn’t have any issues.
But Alex has been a friend for a long time. We met years ago at the GIE Expo and we’ve talked on and off. He’s doing a good thing, and he’s very smart. I wanted to switch and kind of try it out, see how it goes—and it’s been great.
He’s a smart guy. He sold a business that he grew quickly and really did it in a good, smart way. He’s got a lot of experience, and yeah, it’s been great.
I’ve only been coaching with him for a couple of months now, but it’s been great so far. It’s good.
Ezra McCarthy
Now, especially—well, really everywhere—we all get those clients who say, we give them the quote and then they say, “Well, someone else offered me cheaper.” So how do you deal with clients in your market?
I’ve known you for about a year and a half—we’ve worked together—so how do you handle those clients that think, “I can get it done for cheaper”?
Greyson
Well, I’ll be honest with you—that kind of thing used to bother me a lot more than it does now.
When you grow and you get enough work—where you’re busy—I’ve gotten to the point where I get a little bit irritated when I hear those things. I just kind of let that stuff go.
And I’m not saying I don’t ever try to pursue and try to sell people—because I do. But I’m like, if they’re strictly price shopping, they’re probably not my client.
We do a good quality job, and we try to stand behind our work. So if they’re just strictly price shopping, and they’re throwing out the price as a big concern, then we might not be the right fit.
Back before, when we were a little slower and didn’t quite have as much work on the books, we would maybe try to come down a little bit—just to meet those people where they were, or to get the work. And I understand doing that in the beginning. Sometimes, maybe that’s needed.
But I definitely think you need to know your worth and try to sell yourself. And if those clients can’t see that, then maybe they’re not the right fit.
Ezra McCarthy
I know, from talking to lots of different companies, everyone’s interested—or at least they think they are—in getting into hardscaping, because it’s a higher ticket item.
You might go mow a lawn, and unless it’s really big, I mean, $100 to $200 per mow is a pretty good-sized lawn.
So you did some hardscaping—how did you break into that?
And then, what is your goal in getting into that? Do you see yourself trying to do more of it?
Greyson Sawyer
So it was one of those things for me too—it’s flashy, it looks like it makes more money, and it does make more money. I thought it was the thing you had to do.
I’ve learned a lot and grown a lot. I do love the hardscape side, and we do a good bit of it. But we also do a lot of other stuff too that’s more in-depth—like machine work, drainage work, grading, and things like that.
But yeah, hardscaping was flashy to me, and I wanted to be in it.
So whenever we grew to the point—in 2019 or 2020, I can’t remember exactly—I was able to quit mowing myself in the field. By that point, we were busy enough to have quite a few landscape jobs coming in, and they were getting booked out far in advance because I was still in the field mowing with a guy or two.
I think we ran a three-man crew for a while, and it got to the point where we were only doing landscaping jobs on Fridays. I still think I kept it a four-day mowing week, but Fridays—and even Saturdays—I’d work on those jobs.
We started booking two or three months out because we only had one day a week for those jobs.
And I could see that those jobs were just naturally coming in without me even trying hard to sell them. Not necessarily hardscapes—more softscapes, mulch, rock, plants. Just smaller, simpler stuff that I knew how to do or had learned how to do.
So I said, well, let’s see what happens. At that point, I had a guy I knew could run the mowing crew without me. I hired another guy, and we ended up going all in.
I think it was 2020—we bought another truck, a dump trailer, and committed to doing full-time landscaping. Me and a guy would go landscape while the others mowed grass. That’s what we did.
We started with basic jobs, but they kept us busy. Thankfully, the Lord kept our schedule full. Even when I switched from doing landscaping one day a week to four or five days a week, we stayed busy.
I made some good connections and was able to keep the schedule full.
Then slowly, I started thinking, I want to do hardscapes. But I didn’t really get a lot of leads for it, and I didn’t know how to do it either.
That was another thing—I didn’t know what I was doing. But I watched stuff online.
Eventually, I really wanted to get into it, so I ended up purchasing an online webinar to learn how to build walls and patios.
Ezra McCarthy
Was that Caleb’s—just curious? Was it helpful?
Greyson Sawyer
It was, yes.
Yeah, very. I did my first patio based off of watching a video. I’d never done one in my life. I had a client, acted like I knew what I was doing, sold the patio, and we did it—along with some other landscaping around the house.
And I remember, I was out on that first patio job literally pulling up Caleb’s videos on the job site, making sure I was doing things properly.
Ezra McCarthy
The customer wasn’t close?
Greyson Sawyer
I know—I was like, I’m out here watching videos on how to do this job right on the job site. But I was just determined to learn. I wanted to do it. I thought it was cool, and I knew there was bigger money in it.
Getting back to that—it’s still got its issues. A bigger ticket isn’t always better. But I think if you have the right skilled guys, you can definitely do great.
So I started getting into more of that—doing more patios and retaining walls. We still haven’t done any really large hardscape jobs. We’re not building super large outdoor kitchen spaces or anything like that.
And I will say—I wouldn’t mind getting into some of that.
But back to your earlier question—where do I see it going?
With my goals of growing the company larger, I think I do want to grow a little more maintenance heavy. Mainly because I’ve just found that to be so much more scalable.
You can train guys a whole lot faster to cut grass and trim bushes than you can to build an outdoor kitchen.
That said, I do have a really good core group of guys who are really good on the project side. They do a great job on the hardscapes.
Even for things we haven’t done before, they know enough that they could step in, figure it out, and do those things. If there are learning curves, we’ll figure it out for sure.
We’ve done a lot of different stuff. I know we can learn and handle new challenges if needed.
So with the core group of guys we have now, I’d love to keep growing and doing more hardscapes and large-scale hardscapes—because I know I’ve got the right people.
But in terms of scaling that—I don’t know if I want to make hardscape expansion the long-term focus.
Maybe more crews and more guys doing the basic softscapes and smaller installs. That’s a little more scalable too.
If you look around, most of the companies with 50, 100, even 200 employees—most of them are highly maintenance-driven. Their primary services are the simpler services, and it’s just much more scalable.
It’s much harder to find guys that can be trained quickly to do the large stuff.
So that’s kind of where I see it going over the next several years—still doing those hardscape projects and in-depth work, but keeping that to a core of one or two really strong crews.
Then scaling the maintenance side a bit heavier.
Ezra McCarthy
So when you started with the hardscaping, did you have the knowledge? Was your man-hour rate actually as good as you thought? Or did it take you quite a while to, one—learn the skills—and two—actually execute so it was profitable?
Greyson Sawyer
Yeah, it definitely took way longer than I thought in the very beginning.
Ezra McCarthy
How long?
Someone listening—they may be thinking, “I’m going to jump in and make bank.”
Yeah—it probably is not like that.
Greyson Sawyer
Yeah, so, you know, my first patio—I thought, dude, this is crazy. I get to do a patio for, whatever it was, probably like six or seven thousand dollars. And you just think that’s huge, especially when you’ve mostly done maintenance work and lighter projects. That sounds like a huge number.
But yeah, with the man-hours and the time involved—I don’t remember exactly what I had estimated—but I’m pretty sure it was supposed to be maybe a two- or three-day job, and it ended up being more like a five- or six-day job.
So obviously, I didn’t make anywhere near the profit I needed to or should have made.
But I kind of expected that, just getting my foot in the door. I was hopeful for the three-day outcome, but I also knew—hey, this is the first one. If we don’t make a lot of money, we’ve got to learn.
It was one of those things where I didn’t stress about it too much in the beginning. I knew we had to learn.
And then after that, the second one got better. The third one got better. We got faster, got better at doing it.
So I knew that was just part of learning—and maybe that’s just what it takes in the beginning when you’re figuring things out.
But yeah, it’s one of those things that’s not always as shiny as it sounds. You can definitely get hurt a lot worse on those jobs if you mess up your estimating.
It hurts a lot more to mess up a patio than it does to mess up a few yards of mulch or something.
Ezra McCarthy
I don’t say that to discourage anyone from doing hardscaping—I just want them to be realistic.
Because sometimes we get optimistic and we see that “Wow!” factor.
And that’s not even a big hardscape—but we don’t always realize what it really takes.
Greyson Sawyer
It’s one of those things that’s shiny—it looks good, it looks awesome—and it’s easy to just think it’s great. But you might not realize what’s all involved and what it really takes.
Ezra McCarthy
All those man hours… all of Caleb’s instructions.
Yeah, that is helpful.
So if someone’s wanting to connect with you, where’s the best place to find you?
Greyson Sawyer
Yeah, that’s right.
We’re Sawyer Landscaping on Instagram and Facebook.
I know Instagram is probably where most contractors are kind of connecting.
So yeah, that would probably be the best one—or our great website that you built.
Ezra McCarthy
Thanks for the plug.
Well, thanks to Grayson for pulling the curtain back on his business and what it takes to grow a serious landscaping company.
If you’re inspired by his journey, remember—it takes a team and a lot of work.
If you got value from today’s episode, be sure to share it with another lawn and landscape pro who’s trying to grow their business. And if you’re serious about growing your business, be sure to subscribe to this podcast—and we’ll catch you all next time.
