Ezra McCarthy
Hey guys, welcome back to the Lawn Care Blueprint. Today we’re gonna be bringing part two of our series with a great guest, Joey Coleman. He’s gonna share some more value. Welcome back, Joey. You shared a story in your book about the dentist who had turned you into a lifelong patient. Do you mind sharing that story? And there’s no telling how much business that dentist has got from his great service.
Joey Coleman
Yeah, well, I actually know the dentist quite well and she’s absolutely fabulous. What’s wonderful is she has gotten a ton of business from people reading the book and going to her because here’s the thing, at the end of the day, we don’t necessarily think of the dentist as somebody that we are excited to spend time with. And I say that respectfully to any dentist that may be hearing this after the fact.
I’m not being critical of dentists. I’m just saying that lots of times for many patients going to the dentist is a challenging experience. It’s a long story that I tell in the book, but I’ll give you an abbreviated version of it. What happened is I was eating a sweet tart and I bit down and my back molar exploded. The tooth just exploded. Ten out of ten pain, jagged edge tooth in the back of my mouth. We had just moved to Denver, Colorado, and what am I gonna do? I haven’t established a relationship with a dentist. I’m not ready to navigate this crazy environment of having a broken tooth and having to find a dentist. And so I got a referral to go to Aurora Modern Dentistry in Aurora, Colorado. I was like, I’ve got to go in and get this figured out.
So I call up the dentist office and they’re like, oh, we’re so sorry that this happened. We need to get you in immediately. Let’s just pause right there. When is the last time you called a doctor or dentist office and they showed empathy and said we need to get you in right away? It’s pretty rare. It doesn’t happen. So immediately I’m like, they feel my pain, literally and physically. This is great. This is wonderful.
And so they say, we’re going to get you into an appointment. Can you come in an hour? I’m like, yes, absolutely. They’re gonna get me in right away and they said, look, if you have the ability, if you’re feeling up to it, can we send you the paperwork right now so you can fill it out so you don’t have to wait while you’re here in the lobby filling it out and immediately when you walk in, we can do it. I was like, great, this is amazing. This is modern technology being put to use. I was like, fabulous.
Information gets emailed over to me. I filled it out. I go to the dentist. I walk into the dentist and as soon as I open the door, the receptionist says, Mr. Coleman, so good to see you. Please come right back with me. And I’m thinking, how did you know who I am? I’ve never been to this dentist.
Ezra McCarthy
It may have been the pained look.
Joey Coleman
It may have been the pained look and it may have also been the fact that they told me the appointment time. They knew their other patients and I was the person who walked in that they hadn’t seen before. So they took a gamble. It was indeed me. They take me back, long story short, meet with the dentist immediately. Everything gets sorted out. I’m feeling really well taken care of, really well provided for. They fix the problem. I’ve got to get a new tooth. It’s definitely not what I signed up for and not what I was planning for that day. But we go through and we get everything sorted out and I’m feeling good. And they send me on my way. I’m thinking the story’s over.
About two hours later, my phone rings. Pops up, it’s an unknown number. Like, that’s weird, but I decide to answer it. Hello? Hey, Joey, this is Dr. McCann, Dr. Katie McCann, the dentist who worked with me. She’s calling me, not her office, not her team. Dr. McCann, the dentist who did the work with my tooth. And she said, by now, the numbing agent and the stuff we put on is probably wearing off, and I just wanted to check in on your pain level right now and see how you’re doing. There is a reason why until Dr. McCann retired about a year and a half ago, two years ago now, that I would fly to Colorado for dental appointments. I had long since moved out of the state, but I would go back to see this dentist because of the experience she created. Now, let’s be clear.
It’s a fun story. It was a remarkable experience. Some of the folks listening might be like, Joey, there’s not a parallel to the lawn business and to landscaping, okay? But actually there is. When you make someone feel seen, when you make someone feel heard, when you make someone feel valued and appreciated, they will be loyal to you. They will keep coming back to you. They will tell their friends about you.
Not only did I have this experience and refer a lot of people to Dr. McCann when I lived in Colorado, you notice I said the name Aurora Modern Dentistry on this podcast, even though Dr. McCann isn’t there anymore. The team that she trained is there, they’re fabulous, there are people still going to that dentist because of the experience I had. I’ve now told that story hundreds of times, if not thousands of times, and it’s the opening chapter in my book. So hundreds of thousands of people who’ve read the book have heard the story of Dr. McCann.
That’s what’s available to you when you create remarkable experiences for your customers.
Ezra McCarthy
Joey, that’s amazing. Now, obviously every single time, even if you train, even if you’re putting some of these systems in place to wow people, things can go wrong, unfortunately. So how do you keep that in perspective when things do go wrong to still create as great of experiences as possible for the customer to keep their trust?
Joey Coleman
Well, help me to understand. Are you asking if what do you do if you make a mistake with a customer to re-earn their trust or what do you do as a business knowing that you might have mistakes that happen?
Ezra McCarthy
Well, a little bit of both. When you do make a mistake and how to plan for one. Not that you’re planning for a mistake, but it will happen.
Joey Coleman
Oh, but I would suggest let’s take them in reverse order then, Ezra. I think you should plan for mistakes. Okay, what are some of the most common mistakes that happen in a lawn care business?
Ezra McCarthy
Damaging property probably.
Joey Coleman
Damaging property, we know this happens almost every single customer at some point during the relationship, we’re going to damage something on their property. Do we have a system and process in place that our team has been trained on for how we respond to damaged property? The typical lawn care business does not. The system is the person who is driving the mower calls the owner and goes, I drove over the swimming pool. I threw a rock into the window. I drove over the hydrangeas. I wasn’t paying attention and I spun left when I should have spun right and the mower went over and we just cut down all their flowers.
We know these things are going to happen, but we haven’t trained our team on what to do when those things happen, nor have we as business owners anticipated what the problems are and gotten ready for what our fixes are. If I’m running a lawn care business, I have a relationship with a glass company because I’m probably going to break a window at some point in the relationship. And you know when I want to find my relationship with the glass company, not when I’m trying to get somebody to quickly go out and repair. I want that relationship established in advance.
I want things figured out before. I want to ask for VIP treatment with that window company and say, if I bring every broken glass window to you, can I get on the thing where we can have this fixed immediately? I want to have stuff in the truck to cover up a window if it’s broken while we’re there. Cardboard, plywood, everything we need ready to go so that if the window does break, we’re ready to go immediately. I want to have a conversation where we take photos of the flowers so that if we mow over some of the flowers, we know the kind of flowers we mowed over and we can get a team out to replant them that day, maybe even before the owner gets home.
These are the type of things that as business owners we can think through strategically and intentionally to prepare for the types of mistakes that would happen. In every business there are envisionable mistakes and problems and unenvisionable mistakes and problems. The challenge I have is with the number of businesses that have a lot of envisionable mistakes and problems that they haven’t spent any time thinking about or strategizing for, they just wait until they’re in the crisis.
Now let’s talk about once you’re in the crisis. Most mistakes are just that, they’re mistakes. And most customers have made mistakes in their own life and understand that mistakes happen. It’s how we respond when a mistake happens that makes the difference of whether our mistake becomes the reason to be fired or our mistake turns into our marketing. What do I mean by that? The way we handle the mistake becomes so remarkable that the person fixes the mistake and the relationship is even better off on the back end because the mistake was repaired, because the mistake was resolved. So I think it’s about training your team to recognize that when a mistake happens, the first thing we need to do is talk about it. What do I mean by that?
If one of your team members destroys some property while they’re driving a mower, the first thing they need to do is call you. And they need to know that when they call you the owner, they’re not going to get, can’t believe you did that. Instead, they’re going to get, wow, great job. Not great job breaking the window, not great job driving over the flowers, great job letting me know immediately. Because the sooner I know, the quicker we can move to resolution. Number two, assess the actual situation and problem. Lots of times we make problems out to either be much bigger than they are, or we minimize them as a way to avoid any responsibility. Oh, it wasn’t that big, we just drove over like three of the hydrangeas, we didn’t get all of them, so it’ll be fine. We want to get an accurate assessment of the problem and the situation.
Next, we want to communicate with the person who was injured or offended or whose house or property was damaged. We don’t want the owner to come home and find this mistake. We want to call them immediately. And the call should come from the owner to show that we take it seriously. The owner calls the property owner and they say, hey, we were mowing your lawn today and I’m so sorry but a rock went out from one of the blades, hit your basement window, and cracked the window. I’m so sorry that this happened, but I wanted to let you know right away. Now there are a couple of things we’ve already done and a couple of things we’re happy to do, and with your permission, I’d love to explain what we’ve already done, what we’re gonna do going forward, and hear any thoughts you have or any suggestions you have of things that we could do to make it even better.
Here’s what we’ve already done. We’ve already put a piece of plywood cut out and sized up so you don’t have to worry about any animals or any rain or any debris getting into your basement. The owner immediately breathes a sigh of relief because you’ve solved the acute immediate problem. Secondarily, we are willing to have a member of our team stay there to make sure your house is secure until you’re able to come home or until we’re able to assess this. Third, we’ve got a relationship with a glass company. They can be there. We’ve already contacted them. They can be there in two hours.
To resize and refit the basement window at our expense. What would you like us to do? You’ve presented options, you’ve shown them that you’ve thought through the possibilities, and now you are ready to respond to the situation. How we respond to things going awry is what determines whether our mistakes become reasons to be fired or whether our mistakes become reasons for our marketing in the future.
Ezra McCarthy
This is really helpful. I’m curious, do you have any customer experience stories relating to this? What you gave was really good. Do you have some other ones from other industries as well, people who have done it well?
Joey Coleman
Yeah, mistakes happen all the time that get repaired well and mistakes happen all the time that don’t get repaired well, right? There’ve been situations where I’ve shown up at restaurants for a reservation and the table wasn’t ready and so they send us to the bar to wait and comp us with some free drinks.
There have been times I fly a lot where there have been issues with my flights and I’ve had many times where they’ve turned around and either upgraded me on the next flight or got me out on a faster flight or switched to a different airline or gave me extra miles or put me up in a room for the night or any number of things they’ve done to resolve the situations. Organizations fixing problems is something that happens all the time. What doesn’t often happen is organizations taking the time to empathize, to say, I’m so sorry that this happened, I’m so sorry that this went awry, and giving that customer a chance to feel their own emotions or state their own emotions.
My favorite technique is to give the customer space to feel what they’re feeling. Give the customer space to be angry. That might even include yelling at you. By the way, that’s why I’m suggesting you, the owner, makes the call, not your team. That’s your job as the owner. You gotta insulate your people from some of that. You got a problem with something, how it’s happened with my business? I’m the one that’s going to take the hits. Why? Because I’m the one who signed up for this. I’m the owner. I don’t need to take someone on my team to task. I’m the owner. That’s part of my job.
And by the way, my job is also, if the mistake was caused by a team member, to use that as a teachable moment, as opposed to use it as an opportunity for me to vent my frustrations. No one’s going to benefit from that. Take the hits, turn around and teach your team, put the systems and process in place going forward to make sure that it doesn’t happen again, or if it does happen again, we’re even more prepared for when it happens next time.
Ezra McCarthy
So good, Joey. Now one comment I hear working with many different business owners is employees. You can’t find them. I know it’s not true, but that’s what they say. They say I can’t find team members, no one wants to work hard, there’s too many cheap immigrants. We’ve all heard it. So you wrote another great book talking about never lose an employee again and use a similar framework talking about the eight phases of the employee’s journey. Do you mind just walking us through that quickly and how that helps keep quality team members for the long term?
Joey Coleman
Absolutely. So as you might not be surprised to know, Ezra, the eight phases of the employee journey are very similar to the eight phases of the customer journey. They all start with the letter A. There’s one exception where the word is different, but let me give you a quick overview. And for those of you that are like, Joey, I’m good on the employee experience type of situations, just reapply this to the customer. Consider it a recap of the customer experience.
So the first one’s the assess phase, phase one, where a prospective employee is assessing whether or not they want to come work for you. They’re looking at your job posting, your ad, your listing of what you’re looking for in the job. They’re going through your interview process. They’re maybe meeting with a recruiter, depending on the type of job you’re offering. They’re trying to figure out, is this the kind of place I want to work for? They’re assessing you as an employer in the same way that you are assessing them as a prospective employee.
We then come to phase two. This is the one where the name changes. It’s the accept phase. The accept phase has two component pieces. We extend an offer to the person we’re hoping to hire, and if we’re lucky, they accept our offer. They transition from being a prospective employee to actually being an employee. But then they go right away to phase three, the affirm phase. That buyer’s remorse we talked about on the customer side shows up on the employee side as new hire’s remorse. The doubt and uncertainty and the fear that a new hire feels immediately after accepting a job offer about what this new experience is gonna be like for them.
In the affirm phase, you want to affirm their choice to accept the job offer and let them know that this is going to be a fantastic place to work. We then come to phase four, the activate phase. The activate phase is the first official day on the job. When somebody shows up for the first day on the job, is it remarkable? Or do you put them to work right away? Do they have any training? Do they have any understanding of what’s going on? Do you show them the ropes? Do you introduce them to people or do they just say, show up at eight o’clock, jump in the truck with these four other guys you’ve never met and go mow some lawns? That’s not a great first day, folks. I understand you want to get them working. I understand that you’re probably understaffed and you’re trying to fill the role quickly, but if you don’t take the time to properly onboard new hires, they’re not going to stay.
Which brings us to phase five, the acclimate phase. What’s the acclimate phase? Well, it’s while a new hire is getting acclimated to your way of doing business. Here’s the fascinating thing, Ezra. Most businesses don’t do onboarding, they do orientation. Orientation is like, here’s the tools you’re going to use, here’s how to start the mower, here’s where you get gas, here’s how we mow lawns, here’s where you take a break, good luck. That’s orientation. Things like where’s the bathroom, where are the things, where do I eat, those are basic ante up chips to sit down at the table as an employer. Onboarding is helping them to understand your culture, understanding their team, understanding the other people they work with, understanding the ethic of the organization, understanding your way of doing landscaping or your way of doing lawn care. So that’s them all acclimating and getting used to that.
We then come to phase six, the accomplish phase. The accomplish phase is when the employee achieves the goal they had when they originally decided to accept your job offer. Now, many business owners think that goal is a paycheck. It’s important to be paid, it’s important to be paid a good wage, absolutely. But most of your hires are looking for more than a paycheck. They’re looking for camaraderie, they’re looking for a job that they enjoy going to, they’re looking for a job where they can feel a sense of progress in their career or in their profession. They’re looking for something more than just, you pay me. What are they looking for? And how are you tracking their progress towards that? We then come to phase seven, the adopt phase, where the employee becomes loyal to you and only you. They’re not going to go work for one of your competitors. They’re committed, they’re bought in. And if, and only if, you get them through all seven phases, do we come to the eighth phase, the final phase, the advocate phase, where they become a raving fan for your business, singing your praises far and wide.
They’re going on Glassdoor and writing reviews. When you have a job opening, they’re saying, hey, my cousin would be a great fit for this, and they’re bringing you quality talent to come work in your business. The same amount of care we give to our customers and keeping our customers should actually be augmented and even enhanced when it comes to taking care of our employees. People ask me all the time, they’re like, Joey, you wrote a book on customers, you wrote a book on employees, which is more important? Well, they’re both important. But if you forced me to only pick one, it’d be employees, because it’s a lot easier to find a new customer than to find a new employee, especially one who’s going to deliver at the standard that you want and need for your business to succeed.
Ezra McCarthy
It’s really good and something Seth Godin wrote about in The Song of Significance. He talks about, he has a list there about why people quit and why people want a job, and money was like number seven out of ten.
Joey Coleman
Yeah, yeah. All the research shows, and it’s not just Seth, and Seth, The Song of Significance is a great book. Research shows that money is not the motivating factor. Money is often not the reason people quit. In fact, the biggest research study that’s ever been done on why people quit looked at a sample set of 234,000 people. The typical study that’s done on why people quit has a sample set of about 500, 250 to 500. I found one from the Work Institute that was 234,000 people.
And they found that people quitting for more money was true 9% of the time. That left me curious about what the other 91% of the reasons that somebody quits. And the top reason, almost three times the number of people who quit for money, quit for a single reason. And that is they can’t see a clear path forward for them at their current employer. And friends, let me speak directly to folks in the lawn care business. What is your growth path for someone who’s riding on the mower?
Most owners aren’t thinking about that. Most owners are thinking, well, there’s more lawns to mow. That’s your growth path. You’re going to go from mowing this lawn to mowing the next lawn. That’s your growth. Folks, that is not a good way to keep an employee long-term. The way to keep an employee long-term is to say, hey, once you move from junior mower, you go to senior mower. Then you go to team lead. Then you go to geographic lead. Then maybe you switch over to regional lead. You show them what the path forward is in your business.
Now some of you may be saying, but Joey, my business has four employees, there isn’t much of a path. Well, do you have a vision for where your business is going to be in three years? I bet you do. And I also bet you haven’t shared that with your team. Or if you have, it’s been about, we’re going to mow more lawns, we’re going to have more clients. Great. But what about them? We’re going to have more opportunities for you. We’re going to have more opportunities for your growth, for your development. A lot of folks that work in the lawn care industry are not native English speakers, at least in the United States.
One growth opportunity could be, hey, we’ve got it set up that after you’ve been with us for two years, you’re going to be speaking English fluently. What lawn care company in the United States has that as a goal for their team? Not many, but is that something that will be valuable to that employee? Absolutely. Because I presume they’re living in the United States where the predominant language is English. And if they don’t speak it and you can help them to get the tutoring, to get the training, to help them understand English and speak English fluently, now you’ve given them a skill that will be useful for them whether they work with you or not. Here’s the thing. So many employers, you’ve got me ranting now, Ezra, buckle up. So many employers want their employees to show up on time, to do excellent work, and to give their best effort. And in exchange, I’ll give you some money and I’ll give you a job tomorrow, unless business gets bad and then I’m gonna have to fire you, because I can’t keep you on the payroll.
We ask so much of our employees and we think that giving them money is enough. Folks, that’s not enough. And if that irritates you, if that angers you, do all of us a favor and think about getting out of business. Because in 2025 and beyond, those are the stakes. You have to provide more than a paycheck. Now we can have a conversation about benefits, we can have a conversation about retirement, but more importantly, I’d love to have a conversation about culture. What’s it like to come to work at your place of business? What’s the standard for how we treat our team members? What’s it like to be on the job? I’ve talked to folks that work in landscape businesses who are like, you know the thing I hate most about my employer? And what’s so fascinating is how many people happily volunteer that. Just start a conversation on that and you’re like, wow, you need someone to vent to. Okay, vent to me. We never sharpen the blades. We never sharpen the blades on the mowers. And so we end up doing a half-arsh project.
It’s not good. Are you giving your people the tools they need to succeed? Are you giving your people the support they need to succeed? Are you giving your people the education that they need to succeed? If you’re not, do better. We can all do better. I can do better. Every employer on the planet can do even more and do better. I’d love us to explore more of that because you know who isn’t saying, it’s really hard to find good talent, it’s really hard to find good workers? People who run remarkable businesses. Montana Knife Company probably isn’t having a hard time finding people to come work for them, are they?
This guy heard this story and wanted to go work there. It’s not as hard as people think, but it does require it.
Ezra McCarthy
This has been so good, Joey. I want to make sure to respect your time. Perhaps someone maybe hasn’t heard of Never Lose a Customer Again or Never Lose an Employee Again. And do you have anything else that maybe we haven’t mentioned if someone’s interested in finding more about you? Where’s the best place to do that?
Joey Coleman
Yeah, so as you mentioned, Ezra, the books are called Never Lose a Customer Again and Never Lose an Employee Again. They’re available wherever you like to get books. You want to buy it at your local indie bookstore, you want to buy it on Amazon, it’s there and it’s available in every format you like. If you’re a physical copy reader, great, there’s a hardcover edition. If you like e-books, you can read it on your Kindle, you can read it on your Nook. If you like the sound of my voice in this podcast, there’s an audiobook and I will narrate the book to you and read it to you as you listen.
Lots of ways to do that. The other place to find out more information about me is my website, joeycoleman.com. That’s J-O-E-Y, like a baby kangaroo or a five-year-old. Coleman, C-O-L-E-M-A-N, like the camping equipment, but no relation. joeycoleman.com. You can find information there about my keynotes, my workshops, different support materials we have that will help you to figure out how to make the most out of the first hundred days in your business, whether that’s for your customers or your employees.
Ezra McCarthy
Well, Joey, this has been great. I know I’ve got a lot of information and help and I think I’m going to go reread the books, especially the one I have, and then I need to get the employee one. I don’t think I have that one yet, so that’s on my list. This has been great. Until next time, tune in. If you haven’t subscribed, subscribe and we’ll catch you on the next one.
